The Condor, London - Glasgow nightly fitted freight.... Options

[16A]

Anyone have any pictures? particularly interested in those of steam engines used to replace the ever troublesome Metrovic diesels assigned to this duty.

I vaguely remember seeing this express conflat train on the down line at Toton, about tea time-ish on weekdays tearing down the Erewash Valley main line, but cannot for the life of me remember what locos were being used, however, a wild guess would be black fives or jubilees, maybe even 9F's. Strangely enough I cannot ever recall seeing the Metrovics but can recall larger diesels (maybe 45's?) My memory seems to generate images of Peaks hauling this fitted freight but, as I've never had the slightest interest in diesels, can't tell one from another, is a Peak a 45? - I don't know, but do remember an occasional Peak rumbling past our office on Toton shed, shaking the place to bits something akin to an earth tremor, and the introduction of these machines ultimately bought my train spotting days to an end.

Thinking back, if the Condor was a nightly service, supposedly leaving London and/or Glasgow each night, why did I see it so often at tea time, always on the down line, some 2 hours away from London? was it early (unlikely), or late from the night before following another Metrovic failure somewhere?

One thing I can remember is the cost. A container was delivered to a customer who would load it; this was then collected and placed on a conflat; transported to London or Glasgow; then the container removed and delivered to its destination, all for the princely sum of £16 to £18 depending on what size container was used. This was for delivery to one address but, they would deliver to a maximum of three destinations for an additional -/10 (ten shillings or 50p in todays parlance) per drop.

[steveiow]

Mike
Yes you are right,the Peaks became class 45,it was a generic name,as the first ten only were named after mountains/hills;these became Class 44 and were all Toton engines but they all looked much the same-odd difference here and there...........
The Condor and the Metrovicks-well it used to leave Hendon about 8-9 o' clock time and would be by you up the Erewash around 23.00,I suppose-2 hours from London is'nt bad even for a Metrovick!
Instructions concerning the working of the train said that if one or both failed before departure then they had to be substituted by two Black 5's.If one failed in service then it had to be replaced,again, by a 5,however,this time,the Black 5 had to be put inside i.e. the diesel had to lead.
I suspect if this happened then words were said,not necessarily printable ones either............
Once they got to Glasgow,they were originally serviced and then supposed to be used on local turns until the return night service.Once their reputation got around they probably spent their day in Glasgow tucked out of sight at Polmadie until the time came to get rid of them back to England.
I can't recall seeing any photo's of Condor with a steamer on it,don't forget,this was the dogs dangley bits of Freight train working in those days,and publicity had to be GOOD!
Steve

[16A]

Hi Steve - thanks for that.

Actually Condor was timetabled to leave Hendon at 19.23 for the longest non stop run of any train of its day, passenger or freight - 301 miles to Carlisle where the crew changed. The engines were not changed but did the full trip of 402 miles to Glasgow arriving at about 05.20 - also the longest loco through run of its day.

Still can't understand why I saw it regularly around five-o-clock which was the end of my working day and I often had to wait for it as I sought to cross the Erewash main line with my bike at Toton Centre box. Two hours up to Toton makes its due time around 9.30'ish so was it 4 hours early or 20 late? - probably the latter, we'll never know.....

[steveiow]

Mike
OK did'nt realise it left Hendon so early,still when you think about it,19.00 from London-05.00 Glasgow-it's a good schedule,your box would be ready for you around 06.00 I suppose.
I seem to recall there was a cut off time as to when your container had to be at Hendon-hour or so before departure I think.
The Carlisle crew change was actually made at the old Midland shed of Durran Hill,this place had been closed for some time but was reactivated for Kingmoor Condor crews who received special training,both driver and fireman and I think the Kingmoor men originally had the monopoly of the job,lodging in London and Glasgow.
This must have been an expensive operation when you consider it-two Black 5's either end ready in case of failure and no doubt standby engines along the way-dedicated crews and a partially reopened shed let alone the cost of the diesels and the platefits,then the operating department had to treat it like a passenger train...........
Why you encountered it at the time you did,I don't know,far as I know,it only ever ran as one train-by the way,I have seen pictures of it with Derby type 2's up front and I would love that headboard on my wall.
Steve

[locomotive919]

the condor express freight was supposed to be a prestigeous service thats why the Co Bo diesels were used to give the impression of a modern service to attract business, but because of the diesels poor reliability and the use of black5's I think there would be very few photo's around of the steam power because of adverse publicity, as it happens there were approx 2 years where the service was not so popular with business, I guess the only photo's with the black 5's would be private ones I believe that if a black 5 was used with a diesel it was always made to run behind the diesel, I suppose the authorities were trying to hide it (I dont think).

[sarah]

The "Official" reason for the "assisting" steam locomotive to be coupled behind the diesel locomotive was to limit the chances of any smuts, cinders or nasty smoke getting sucked into the orrifices of the diesel locomotive.

They do not like it up them.

(So that is why diesels have a reputation for being fussy and delicate machines.)

If the diesel was "dead", and therefore not "sucking" it did not actually matter if the steam loco was on the front.

The "Unofficial" reason was rumored to be so that the steam locomotive looked like it was being rescued by the super duper diesel!

[steveiow]

Sarah
I don't really buy that one,certainly on the WR there was no problem about the diesel leading or not,in the early years.
Mind you,steam/diesel combinations were not that common really although they were serviced side by side until the end of steam.
I suppose another big factor here is the time of day Condor ran-during the winter you've no chance of a photo and in the summer,only a few hours,camera's were expensive,so was film,so most blokes would photo steamers.
BR publicity would'nt want a picture of a Black 5 up front ,but it still don't answer Mike's question as to how he saw the train up the Erewash around tea-time!
I can remember the Metro-Vicks on the Manchester's as a small boy and watching them hurtle through Syston and Barkby Thorpe (just north of Leicester)-the blue haze lasted forever on a calm day,but I never saw Condor
Steve

[Pennine MC]

I don't really buy that one,certainly on the WR there was no problem about the diesel leading or not,in the early years.

Didnt the (G)WR also have a policy though that the 'pilot' (term used here in the sense of an assisting engine over a bank etc, rather than a service that was double headed throughout) should be coupled next to the train, rather than at the front? That little added complication could possibly result in pics of a diesel being at the front. As for other Regions, there are enough published photos to suggest that the official line was usually adhered to, whatever the reasons.

[steveiow]

Pennine MC
Ahh.....Iknew once I put my head up over the parapet some one would take a shot!
What I was trying to say was maybe the steamer had to go inside officially but if they could get away with it it would go anywhere,leading or inside whatever was the easiest.
Yes the WR did have different ideas-the train engine always led,the pilot went inside;don't forget we had up and down mains and up and down relief's while every one else had up and down fast's and up and down slows.
Somewhere in a book is a colour photo of a 41xx class tank leading a D22xx class diesel on what is now the West Somerset railway but of course ,now I want the reference,I can't find it...........
However,back to the original question,what was Condor doing up the Erewash at teatime?
Steve

[16A]

This is pure guess work and is probably to be filed under 'Fiction'

Condor was a high profile express freight from London with guaranteed next morning delivery in Glasgow. Now presumably the service had to have a cut off point whereby loaded containers had to be on conflats at departure point by a set time prior to its leaving at 1923, booking of containers would be a pre-requisite so the administrators of the system had to have a good idea of what traffic they would be handling on any given day. If all the days traffic was loaded and ready to go at say 1700 and given the problems experienced with the Co-Bo's and the related 'bad press', couldn't some suit (with his job on the line) instruct to set the wheels rolling early, thus providing a 'buffer zone' for unexpected delays and maximising arrival in time for delivery next morning?

Crewing would be no problem as they were 'over-nighters' from Glasgow, nor would the fact that it was time tabled to leave at 1923 - a path would be made**

This possible 'face saver' could explain why it was seen, not once, but on many occasions up the Erewash at tea time?????

**I was a Controller at Nott'm Vic for several years controlling part of the Erewash (Codnor Park to Horns Bridge) and am well aware that time-tables were what should happen on a perfect day and, passenger trains apart, it was a case of taking them as they came, not necessarily as time-tabled - in this case the Condor would receive treatment similar top that of passenger trains. I can also remember it popping up on my system around 5.30 - 5.45 on regular occasions.

[Edwin]

Variation on that suggestion - and another total guess.

Would they have run a duplicate if they had more than a train's worth of bookings on a particular day - and sent that off as soon as enough containers had arrived to fill it?

[fourwheelsteer]

Didnt the (G)WR also have a policy though that the 'pilot' (term used here in the sense of an assisting engine over a bank etc, rather than a service that was double headed throughout) should be coupled next to the train, rather than at the front? That little added complication could possibly result in pics of a diesel being at the front. As for other Regions, there are enough published photos to suggest that the official line was usually adhered to, whatever the reasons.

I didn't realise it was policy but I've seen photos of GWR and BR WR (exGWR) trains out of Stratford-upon-Avon up Hatton Bank with the pilot loco coupled behind the main loco. Seemed like a lot of faff to me but I'm sure there were good reasons for doing it this way. I don't know why some trains were piloted that way and others banked with the extra loco pushing the train from behind - which seems far more sensible.

[Edwin]

I think the GWR policy or convention arose from a bad accident in 1904 when an elderly saddle tank, not suitable for high speeds, was attached as pilot engine to a train which was then run at over 60mph before reaching the gradient where the assistance was necessary. Although the inspector's recommendation only applied to that particular route, I have read on another forum that the GWR took it to heart on a wider basis. The justification seems to be that the pull of the engine in front would help to keep the pilot engine in line and on the track.

This seems a little bit spurious to me - what happens for example if the train engine is shut off or even the brakes applied? I would have thought it was better to limit the speed of the whole train to the safe working speed of the pilot, and if this was inconvenient, then find a pilot that was up to the job! However I don't recall another similar derailment on the GWR, so no doubt they felt they were vindicated. Not sure if any of the other companies had anything similar either...

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents...Loughor1904.pdf

[steveiow]

Mike
I think the boxes had to be at Hendon for 18.00 to gaurantee a place on the train,and for a 1920 start,the Kingmoor men would have booked on at Cricklewood,maybe 18.00 or so;quite possibly,engine prepared for them then off to Hendon and beyond.....if things panned out O.K. that is.
If you had an earlier start it would have to have been a local crew as the Kingmoor men were on 12 hours rest,also they would be paid a lot of mileage money for this job-this was probably the best paying turn at the depot at the time,and there would be holy hell to pay,if they lost their mileage.
Get hold of the book 'Calling Carlisle Control' by Peter Brock and published by Ian Allan in 1990,there's a lot on Condor in it.
He specifically mentions Condor being worked by steam on numerous occasions thus 44930,a 4F from St Albans (Jesus,that must have been purgatory!) 92001,70054,45330 and (here we go)a Metrovck leading and 44960 inside with the crew choking on the exhaust fumes!
Strangly for a footplate cameraman,he did'nt take any photos,and I have'nt heard mention of the train being run in two parts-could have tho'.
I can't resist dropping this one in-page 43 1960 Locospotters Annual 6858 Woolston Grange leading D600 Active out of Newton.............
Steve

[Long funnel ...]

I think the GWR policy or convention arose from a bad accident in 1904
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents...Loughor1904.pdf

Thank you for posting that link.
Reading the whole of that accident report, concluding with its excellent drawings, kept me up well past my usual bedtime.
I reckon folk wrote far more lucid English before the days of computer word processing.

LF&T