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ms06s_char
post 24 Nov 2007, 14:04
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Hello, I need help, I know nothing.
I'm looking for BR MK1 coaches for A3 Flying Scotsman's traction and I see there are many types of coaches, like Brake/Corridor Composite, Composite CK, Corridor First FK, Corridor SK, Full Brake BG, Restaurant Car RU, RFO Restaurant Car, RMB Miniature Buffet Car, which one and how many should I buy? I'm going to get 5-9 coaches.

I'm also looking for MK2 coaches for Class 50 D421, seem there are lesser types of MK2 coaches than MK1, what I see from Bachmann website are BFK Brake Corridor First, BSO Brake Open Second, FK Corridor First and TSO Open Second. The livery of Blue/Grey colour is quite good, in my opinion.



Thank you,
Dennis
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dwb
post 24 Nov 2007, 15:23
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There is no hard and fast rule about what to haul behind a locomotive. My rule is choose appropriate to the period modelled and then region. For me that means mid fifties trains are Blood & Custard and as my layout is based in west yorkshire, ex LNER locos pull "E" numbered stock and ex LMS pull "M" numbered stock. For late '50s trains, the coaching stock will tend to be in maroon livery. The Bachmann RMB in Blood & Custard will never run in my trains because it was introduced after the start of the Maroon period. You will note on that Bachmann qualify the description on the box with "preserved".

In terms of coach types, you need a mix of first and second class and a reasonable amount of luggage space too.

David


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Gary
post 24 Nov 2007, 15:44
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Only one restuarent/buffet type car would be required.

And only one brake coach.

Ratio of say 2 2nd clsss for every 1st class coach.

I may be wrong here but compartmented corridor coaches may have been more common in the 50's and open coaches in the 1960's.

So thats 1 brake, 1 restuarent, 2 2nd and 1 1st for a 5 coach rake.

And 1 brake, 1 restaurent, 4 2nd and 2 1st for an 8 coach rake.

If you are running 6 or 7 coach rakes you may need some composites to get the balance right of the 2 to 1 ratio of 2nd to 1st.

Long distance trains might require a full brake on certain services.

If I was the BR Director in charge of setting the coach consist for my BR trains in the 1950's that is pretty much how my thinking would be to get the balance right!

Would I have been fired Alan Sugar style? question.gif

Happy modelling
Gary

PS Bachmann and Hornby have to be very astute about this when they calculate production numbers to get the balance and mix right. Nobody wants to be left with restuarent coaches and brakes that they can't sell! Hornby Dublo were hopeless at this. How many of you went into the shops in the 1960's during the great Hornby Dublo sale of 1965 and beyond to find only brake and restuarent coaches on offer for 5/- (25p)? I ended up with more restaurant cars than I needed but was I that bothered? Not really as they were cheap and I had not hauled so many coaches before!
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34C
post 24 Nov 2007, 16:53
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QUOTE (ms06s_char @ 24 Nov 2007, 14:04) *
Hello, I need help, I know nothing.
I'm looking for BR MK1 coaches for A3 Flying Scotsman's traction and I see there are many types of coaches, like Brake/Corridor Composite, Composite CK, Corridor First FK, Corridor SK, Full Brake BG, Restaurant Car RU, RFO Restaurant Car, RMB Miniature Buffet Car, which one and how many should I buy? I'm going to get 5-9 coaches.

If you want to create a 'typical' principal express train on the East Coast I would suggest these formations for your 5 to 9:
BCK/SK/RU/FK/BSK,
BCK/SK/SO/RU/FK/BSK,
BCK/SK/SO/RU/RFO/FK/BSK,
BCK/SK/SK/SO/RU/RFO/FK/BSK,
BCK/SK/SK/SO/RU/RFO/FK/FK/BSK,
and going on to 10 or 11;
BCK/SK/SK/RMB/SO/RU/RFO/FK/FK/BSK,
BCK/SK/SK/SK/RMB/SO/RU/RFO/FK/FK/BSK.

The last is the scheduled vehicle make-up of the Elizabethan in the late BR steam era; the actual vehicle order sometimes shown with RMB and SO exchanging positions. The BCK is on the North end of the formation, as it and the adjacent SK were through to Aberdeen. If you want to go bigger, extras in the form of SK, CK and BG can be added.
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pedromorgan
post 24 Nov 2007, 17:12
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You would have had a brake coach at both ends of the rake and if the train was going to be split somewhere then 2 more in the middle too.

Gary. you wouldnt have been fired alan sugar style. as the problems would only arise at the destination when the train had to come back the other way and the guard had nowhere to sit at the back of the train.

If it was the summer season then a TSO culd be thrown in for good measure.

As DWB says there is really no hard and fast rule with mk1's also they survived for sucvh a long time and were so numerous on the network that if you looked hard enough you could find just about any formation you wanted. so nobody can say you are wrong!

if you have a brake coach at either end and buffet or resteraunt car in the middle then evrything else is pretty flexable.

Peter


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dwb
post 24 Nov 2007, 20:06
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QUOTE
if you have a brake coach at either end and buffet or resteraunt car in the middle then evrything else is pretty flexable.


It has been my observation that the food vehicles provide a "buffer" between first and second class ie first class on one side, second class on the other. Is this usually the case or were there exceptions?

David


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Ravenser
post 24 Nov 2007, 21:50
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I'm assuming that the A3 is in BR condition of some sort . In the 1950s and early 60s there were still pre Nationalisation coaches in front line service on the East Coast Mainline , and you could mix in one or two (ex LNER) Thompson coaches into the formation - these are available from Bachmann but they are older models to a lower standard than their superb Mk1s

A word of warning : in 1956 BR changed its coach livery from red and cream ("blood and custard") to maroon. This roughly corresponds with the change from the early BR "crest" , colloquially referred to as the "lion on a mangle wheel" or "unicycling lion", to the later "totem" (sometimes colloquially described as "ferret with a dart board"). The changeover wasn't instant - a few crimson/cream coaches could still be seen as late as 1960 though not on the sort of prestige trains A3s hauled . In 1965 they changed again , to blue/grey and blue diesel locos. Again the changeover wasn't instant : occasional maroon coaches were still to be seen as late as 1971-2 , to judge from photographs, and some green diesels took a very long time to be repainted into blue - green diesels were still to be seen quite frequently in 1971-2, and the last 2 in green were a cl 20 in 1980 (one of the last locos delivered new in green in 1966) and 40 106 which survived a few years longer

You need to check which crest your A3 is carrying - if it's the early crest you should probably stick to red /cream Mk1s , if the later you need maroon Mk1s . However for several years from 1956 , the train would have been a mixture of red/cream and maroon coaches

Similar issues arise with the Class 50. These were delivered in 1967, in blue - they were amongst the first locos in blue. The D prefix was supposed to be dropped after the end of steam in August 1968 , but photos show D prefixes surviving into the early 70s on many locos. In 1973-4 almost all locos were given new 5 digit TOPS numbers (D421 became 50 021 in Nov 1973). The Class 50s were originally ordered for the northern part of the West Coast Main Line , as electrification then stopped at Preston . Preston/Glasgow was electrified in 1974, and the class 50s were sent to the Western Region

Mk2s were introduced from 1965 , with the Mk2As introduced from 1967-8. The first batches of Mk2 (vacuum brakes only) carried maroon, the Mk2As and onward carried blue/grey from new. Bachmann do both the vacuum braked Mk2Z (in blue/grey or maroon) and the airbraked Mk2A (blue /grey)


So - you have a class 50 in the correct condition for the northern part of WCML between 1967 and 1973. The Mk2s were being delivered at the time and would have gone straight onto the best WCML trains - which is what 50s hauled. But there would still have been lots of Mk1s around - they were nearly all the fleet at that stage, as earlier designs had gone. A mixture of Mk1 and Mk2 coaches would have been very typical of a main line train of the time. And in 1967-70 , a couple of coaches would probably still have been in maroon

No Mk2 catering vehicles were built. So on a main line express , the restaurant car would have had to be a Mk1 until at least 1974 (when the Mk3s appeared for the Preston /Glasgow electrification) . A lesser train would make do with a buffet car (RMB).

dwb
QUOTE
It has been my observation that the food vehicles provide a "buffer" between first and second class ie first class on one side, second class on the other. Is this usually the case or were there exceptions?


This is the normal rule. There will have been exceptions - there was a named ECML sleeper service of the late 50s that had a buffet as the last coach
This was because it was taken off the down (nortthbound) train at York and attached to the back of the up service

In the 50s , one of the major uses for open coaches was as dining vehicles. Notice in the "Elizabethan" formation quoted by 34C how the two catering vehicles - RMB and RU are seperated by an RFO (an open coach) and an SO (2+2 seating - differs from a TSO - 3+2 seating) . These are the only open coaches in the formation . ie in this train opens were for serving passengers with food, and the 2nd class got a buffet coach whereas 1st class got a full restaurant car. The main seating accomodation was in compartment stock, but 4 coaches are for dining

In the 60s and 70s the scale of catering facilities was steadily reduced, and the number of dining coaches in the train cut back. A late 60s WCML express might have had 2 dining coaches. Today a single Restaurant/buffet with seating would be the norm

Sorting out credible/authentic catering provision is a little difficult . A 5-6 coach train has an RMB , and nothing else. Mk1 catering vehicles were almost all built quite late (1957-61): if your A3 is in early livery then you might want to look at Hornby's Gresley buffet in crimson/cream for a short train

If you can run to 9 coaches, then you want either RU+RFO or RU+SO for your catering: this applies both to the ECML train for the A3 and to the WCML train for the 50 : in both cases the vehicles would be Mk1s . You could even save some money by using the same 2 coaches for both trains , in which case they must be maroon. A 9 coach WCML train composed of BFK, FK, FK, RU, RFO or SO, TSO, TSO, TSO, BSO with the 2 catering vehicles maroon Mk1s and the rest blue/greywould be a pretty convincing late 60s express behind D421

A BG might be found at one end of a longer train instead of a "normal "brake. No Mk3 brakes were built so after 1974 all principal WCML trains had BGs as brake vansd at each end . That's into the electric era and past D421's stint on the route , but similar things would have happened earlier. Night trains were often de facto parcels trains with passenger accomodation and might have several BGs at the front
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dwb
post 24 Nov 2007, 23:04
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QUOTE
one or two (ex LNER) Thompson coaches into the formation - these are available from Bachmann but they are older models to a lower standard than their superb Mk1s


The most obvious difference is the recessed windows on the Thompsons. I have just fitted some flush glazing to my one Thompson and it does make a difference.

David


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ms06s_char
post 25 Nov 2007, 03:21
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Thanks all.

This is my A3 4472 NRM special edition:

I saw videos on Youtube that 4472 on running day was tractioning maroon coaches and often cream/crimson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE7NDXIyfQo

And this is my Class 50, I think it is in its early 70s:




Dennis
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Gary
post 25 Nov 2007, 10:01
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If you are running the train as a preservation excursion special you really could plonk anything including teak Gresleys and Pullmans mixed behind the locos together with MK1s and 2s. You would need to check out which coaches are regularly used on such excursion trains. The version of the Flying Scotsman in the image could not run on a prototypical 1950's layout as it never appeared in the LNER livery during its life in service as a BR loco. However its your layout and you can do what you want! I for one would not be bothered what you did as long as you enjoyed the hobby and had some fun along the way! smile.gif

The challenge of creating a 1950's prototypical rake of coaches is one that appeals to a lot of modellers including those who may not be using a prototypical 1950's loco and we should not forget this.

The coach information above is very useful and any future members with questions about coach mixes could definitely be pointed to this topic!

Happy modelling
Gary
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dwb
post 25 Nov 2007, 10:42
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QUOTE
You would need to check out which coaches are regularly used on such excursion trains


There must be a lot of photos of 4472 at the head of such trains. It would also be worth identifying which tour company organises the trips and hunting down photos of other trains in their port folio. Whilst the locos on excursions trains change, the coaches don't, which reminds me, if you do want to model an excursion train, you'll need the locomotives "support" coach. I believe these are usually BSKs. Take a look at the coach behind Princess Elizabeth taken last summer. Hasn't the NRM announced a model of their own support coach to be released real soon?

I've been on a couple of tours where I believe the coaching stock has been provided by West Coast Railways. The trains are usually a colourful mix. I will post some photos in my gallery in the next couple of days. You can take your choice from green, maroon, cream and green. I don't know where that last one comes from!

David


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dwb
post 25 Nov 2007, 12:31
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I have uploaded two images of coaching stock used in railtours I have been on to the UK mainline steam album in the galleries section.

I've noticed that all the coaches appear to be on "Commonwealth" bogies. Is that mandatory for mainline use these days, I assume its a speed thing?

David


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Ravenser
post 25 Nov 2007, 16:37
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Green/cream is the former LNER "tourist" (excursion set)livery , applied to 2 sets for West Highland steam specials. I'd imagine Commonwealth bogied stock would be strongly preferred for mainline running.

If a modern charter set is needed for 4472, then the formation looks a bit different. Most charter sets are FOs and TSOs - with a few FK and SK s plus brakes. Catering vehicles are RBR and RMB - dwb's photo gallery seems to show an RBR in maroon. Maroon seems to be the favoured charter livery at present. Though the set pictured above is carmine/cream , mainly. Unfortunately Bachmann force your hand because most vehicles aren't availble in maroon. Therefore a pair of TSOs in carmine/cream are needed. You'll need a support coach and 2 other brakes - the NRM support coach would be ideal - if this has sold out either a BSK or BCK in any colour - green, chocolate/cream, maroon, carmine/cream , even regional railways.

I'd suggest : support coach(BSKor BCK) /BCK/FK(maroon)/RMB/TSO/TSO/BSK

The last 3 definitely carmine/cream. Bachmann do a preserved carmine/cream RMB which is ideal - but then you need to buy a second restaurant car for D421 . The alternative would be a single maroon RMB , used for both trains.

The clever bit is that by removing one of the 2 leading brakes and adding a maroon SK , you get a credible second string late 1950s express for your next steam engine . By replacing one of the Mk1 TSOs with a prenationalisation SK (either Hornby's Gresley SK or Stanier SK, depending on region) you get an even more plausible late 50s train

The maroon Mk1 FK can be used behind D421 to save you the cost of a coach and give:

BFK/FK (maroon Mk1) /RU/TSO/TSO/TSO/BSO. Alternatively, given a maroon RMB and blue/grey BCK in the train for 4472 (both actually exist for railtour work) , you could use these behind D421 as well:

BCK (mk1 blue/grey)/FK (maroon Mk1) RMB (maroon Mk1)/TSO/TSO/TSO/BSO
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alastairq
post 25 Nov 2007, 17:26
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for a typical, normal train setup...up until the end of steam, anyway, you need, somewhere to eat, somewhere to sit,somewhere to put the baggage, and toilet access.

Ratio of first to second may well be 2 or 3 to one, second to first....however, the number of 'seating' coaches would depend on the expected loadings.

Do not forget parcels traffic.

There have been a series of articles recently in Model Rail concerningtrain consists, and also, how parcels traffic was moved.

So, having assembled the 'basics, outlined above...adding however many extra 'seats' to cope with intended loading, don't forget the Vans.....of which the choice is many and varied...and COULD be drawn from much 'older' stock....including pre-grouping era......if the modelled era was late 50's/ early 60's.


plus, there's always the chance to run whatever you like.....since even Flying Scotsman would have also hauled ECS...especially displaced stock.

[I remember as a lad, modelling 3mm [Tri-ang] TT....finding my 'local' model shop in Sutton Coldfield. having a 'sell-off' of surplus stock......I got all excited when I noticed a stack of coaches, they being quite expensive at the time....to find they were ALL Restaurant cars......at the prices I bought several.....using 'imagination' as a substitute for Composites, brakes, etc.....in the end, I really was...stumped? What did one do with 4 or 5 restaurant cars, and one brake compo?}
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dwb
post 25 Nov 2007, 18:57
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QUOTE
dwb's photo gallery seems to show an RBR in maroon

I don't know if this additional information will help to tighten up on the identification; the door at the left of the camera is labelled "Kitchen". The coach itself is lettered "Kitchen Car".

On this trip those with foresight (and enough cash) opted for full meal service so full cooking facilties were required. On the original tour timings there had been a reasonable stop over in Carlisle which we had hoped to use to get some food. Unfortunately "Paving difficulties" meant the times were changed which resulted in an absurdly early start from Reading, and hardly any time at Carlisle. As I have written elsewhere, we won't be doing that again.

David


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