Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Makeup of wagons on my railway
David Pennington
post 9 Apr 2018, 10:59
Post #1


LongHairedDavid
Group Icon



Group: Plus+
Posts: 131
Joined: 7-January 18
From: Ipswich, Suffolk
Member No.: 145,274



Hello everyone.

I am close to starting to run trains on my Pennvale Sands (see my blog at http://www.pennvaleblog.co.uk.

As I started N Gauge from scratch, I have had to build up a fleet of wagons. I am interested in what people think should be the various percentages of the total fleet for the different wagon types. here is the list of the wagons that I have bought so far and I would like to see what you think.

Please remember that I have fish traffic going between the branch - to the main station - and then on to Manchester/London so the preponderance of fish wagons is to be accepted.



Advice and/or comments would be appreciated.


--------------------
David
Main man on the Sunset & North Eastern Railroad - now in N Gauge
Gentle Model Railways
Go to the top of the page
 
+
Bear 1923
post 9 Apr 2018, 14:31
Post #2


Regional Controller
*******


Group: Members
Posts: 2,639
Joined: 31-March 11
Member No.: 10,215



Critical consideration... What's the date(s) of your layout again?

What vans are you using for the fish? Hopefully specialised stock - fully fitted and chilled in some way (insulated rather than reefers).

Pre 1950 there would be more general purpose opens (mainly 5 plank) than vans. Post 1950 the balance changed with more vans - plus early containerisation, Some containers were insulated - so, on appropriate "fast traffic" (fully fitted/fast running gear) flat wagons could fit into your fish (van) trains - or make their own train if you have a lot of them. Some containers were P.O. - especially for insulated traffic - Birds Eye for one - although I'm not aware if this included fish.
Coal traffic (domestic) would still be significant into the 1960s. Moving from wooden P.O. from c1940 to Ministry of Supply, then Ministry of Transport and then BR steel wagons (lettering depended on the last re-paint or renumbering) - all opens not hoppers.
You would see an increase in tank wagons for fuel from 1950 - possibly including some specifically to fuel your fishing fleet. An odd possibility would be specific tank trains related to a dispersed fuel depot - this would not necessarily be military. Similarly you might have significant van traffic to a government Buffer Store from mid 1940s. (This might also be a grain store or a refrigerated store). {Google "buffer store"}.

Then there would be some degree of engineer's traffic--- long flats for rail, opens for ballast and bits (chairs etc) opens or flats for sleepers. Ballast increasingly in specialst hoppers toward the end of the 50s and onward. Engineer's traffic can be in its own trains or tacked onto ordinary ("local") goods. Engineer's trains likely to have a brake van at each end - one might be a plough van. There is a chance a small(ish) crane would be included - but these tended to lower permitted train speed.

That lot should give you something to work on...

dribble.gif

PS What locos have you ended up with?
Go to the top of the page
 
+
kristopher1805
post 9 Apr 2018, 16:54
Post #3


Minister of Transport
Group Icon



Group: Plus+
Posts: 5,707
Joined: 23-July 10
From: UK Devon
Member No.: 8,315



Exactly,

So as you go from 1948 to 1968 the BR steam years
1. Cattle was given up when BR no longer was a common carrier, also some used as ale wagons but the floors were weakened by cattle stamping their feet and knocking out the floors, the GWR panelled some of these is to use as fruit or similar vans but by 1968 I cannot remember seeing any left.
2. Conflats, mainly with BD containers, this traffic increased as Speedfreight and Door to door were introduced, The Beeching report is all about what he called liner trains, we know as freightliner with ISO containers the 40 foot box so they started to appear about then from 1963.
3. Tanks got bigger, in 1966 there was a big switch over to the TTA type for oil terminal traffic such as Stanlow to Liversedge smaller ones were going fast through this period. Later more pipelines killed this business off.
4. Only ICI and Murgatroyds used bogie tankers back then.
5. Steadily the unfitted stock was knocked out and only the 16 ton coal wagons remained often mixed with slope sides and 20/21 ton two door types, generally as Bear says
6. Introduction of Presflow and Prestwin hoppers plus bulk grain, anhydrite wagons and covhops all through the late fifties onwards
7. Again as Bear says vanisation was a policy so goods in open wagons reduced, 3 plankers were used as conflats.
8. Always a few steel carrier open bogie bolsters and frame carriers for sheet steel.
9. Non coal open wagons tended to the 16 tonner in brown, a 13 tonner steel and the express mineral types as wooden ones were scrapped
10. Bogie vans were kept going and some used for enparts - diesel engine parts to depots. GUVs used for car carrying.
11. Milk tanks around until recently but they were always very dirty
12. I think there were about 350,000 16 tonners is why the Barry steamers survived too busy cutting up steel wagons, even in the 60's there were vast numbers of steam engines in use in mills and many ships had coal fired boilers as well as trawlers and puffers.
13. barrier wagons in use to protect from nasty chemicals and fuel tanks
14. Use of shock wagons to protect vulnerable cargos, freight locos unless balance shuttle back and forth as they go (unless they had a gold star above number to indicate balanced)

Your branch line depends upon what traffic it supported incl parcel vans, so plenty to go at unlike todays railway

So for say about 1962 a few more conflats and BD's with a scammell scarab or two to move them at the depot end, also brown vans there were a lot of those and barely any two the same with great variation in doors, construction, roof shape, height, shade of brown, you might see a train of 50/60 and hardly two were alike

A van train hauled by a 2-6-4 tank
Go to the top of the page
 
+
Bear 1923
post 9 Apr 2018, 18:06
Post #4


Regional Controller
*******


Group: Members
Posts: 2,639
Joined: 31-March 11
Member No.: 10,215



smile.gif I don't think it was hoof stamping that rotted out the cattle wagon floors ohmy.gif However, it is worth noting that by the use of lime wash to "disinfect" cattle wagons had been banned - because it had been identified as damaging the cattle's feet more than it killed bugs. This means that all later cattle wagons should not have the characteristic white splodged lower areas of earlier cattle wagons. Variations of brown occurred between the wagons being hosed down. Actually... Nearly ll cattle docks should have some water provision - because there were regulations about watering and resting all livestock movements.

I'd forgotten to mention the increase in "shock" vans and wagons. These had the body mounted on a sub-frame which rode on the underframe via dirty great big horizontal, longitudinal springs. The springs show as long covers along the wagon sides. there is also a difference in where the body sits regarding each end - one end is "flush" and the other end there is an extra bit of frame showing. The wagons and vans were also marked with (two I think) white stripes - vertically. I suspect that all shock stock would have been piped in one way or another - therefore able to run in fully fitted or part fitted trains - at greater speeds / with shorter headways.

Newspaper traffic, mails and parcels would be NPCS stock - when not carried in a full (passenger) van or a luggage compartment - usually the one next to the guard. Mails had additional security. Where there wasn't enough traffic to warrant (aka "pay for") a complete parcels etc train and too much for a passenger train in its normal make-up a van or vans could be added. Around Christmas this would become so common that old/ancient passenger stock would be brought out of retirement to augment the regular stock.

So - you may need to increase your NPCS stock as well as some of your goods stock. smile.gif

cool.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+
David Pennington
post 9 Apr 2018, 19:33
Post #5


LongHairedDavid
Group Icon



Group: Plus+
Posts: 131
Joined: 7-January 18
From: Ipswich, Suffolk
Member No.: 145,274



I am setting this in the green BR 1960s period. So, more brown vans. What should I do about NPCS? Not sure at all (being ex US outline so ignorant of such things). I am having trouble finding anything other than Ventilated vans. Will they do? So, if I put another 8 into the mix and whatever Bear 1923 recommends for NPCS, qwill that do- although I am running out of budget for now :-(


--------------------
David
Main man on the Sunset & North Eastern Railroad - now in N Gauge
Gentle Model Railways
Go to the top of the page
 
+
Bear 1923
post 9 Apr 2018, 19:34
Post #6


Regional Controller
*******


Group: Members
Posts: 2,639
Joined: 31-March 11
Member No.: 10,215



Couple of examples of 00 shock absorbing stock - no idea what is available in N.


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bachmann-37-875-...U0AAOSwjL5ZKAdv

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bachmann-12t-BR-...9EAAOSwdytat~BE

I also (twice) forgot to mention "Palvans" - the beginnings of palletisation on BR - redesigning the van sides with a big sliding door at one end of the side rather than two "cupboard" doors in the middle.

You could look at this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covered_goods_wagon.

and this... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Parkside-PC65-BR...tMAAMXQVT9TFH3K

Someplace there's a huge website with pics of all sorts of goods stock...

cool.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+
kristopher1805
post 9 Apr 2018, 20:57
Post #7


Minister of Transport
Group Icon



Group: Plus+
Posts: 5,707
Joined: 23-July 10
From: UK Devon
Member No.: 8,315



Bear - That website is Paul Bartlett but he is a bit later mostly, still good research however especially for weathering look!

Also I recommend David that you go to You Tube and watch 'Pennine Steam Vol2 Settle and Carlisle' great period colour film of what was about in the Lancs area back in the sixties, I lived in the area between Vol 1 and 3 at the time Geoffrey Whitwam was filming his niece was neighbour of my father after I left home.

Bear - on the matter of the cattle vans this is what father told me and I suspect he knew what he was talking about as he was quite well connected in his own way on the LNER and remained in touch long after he left for pastures new

There are also great stills, look up David Hey actual examples of train facts and photos very magazine in style and heaps of it, I also greatly admire the photographic efforts of Paul Claxton (Claxtons steam) and Barking Bill (Bill Wright) who is on Flickr. I have been working at getting my model railway more and more looking correct for 19th May 1962 (a Saturday) so I have been through all of this although I stretch a point or two in places so you might see a GNR atlantic for instance but nothing after that date at leat but if it was gone before then it might have been around!

OK so now Black 5 45393 of Bletchley shed passes Adolphus Square station with a fitted van freight Groundhog day 19/5/1962
Go to the top of the page
 
+
Bear 1923
post 9 Apr 2018, 22:42
Post #8


Regional Controller
*******


Group: Members
Posts: 2,639
Joined: 31-March 11
Member No.: 10,215



A few of these... [GUVs]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/374-131A-Graham-...bMAAOSwPpZZ8a8j

( ohmy.gif Just noticed the price ohmy.gif )

With some of these... [CCTs]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LIMA-N-GAUGE-CCT...x0AAOSwHP1ayoVV

(Better price - although Lima rarely very sharp).

This is one type to go for...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/dapol-CCT/202280...r8AAOSw9t1axO1O (although note - this is an SR example - always check for region when buying)
This would suit you better https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dapol-NB-004-CCT...B0AAOSwihpau4KN
and - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-Dapol-CCT-Lugg...bwAAOSwKX9aqdMZ

You might include any LMS/LMR Full passenger Van (technically NPCS although would usually tend to run in passenger trains - that carried a lot of parcels or newspaper traffic).

You have to have something with a guards/brake compartment - for the guard. This can be anything passenger rated whether it has a van section or not. It's there to fulfil the requirement for the guard to travel in the train - rather than in the rear cab of a Fully Fitted Freight - which would mostly have occurred after your period. FFF's eventually didn't need brake vans - partly because their short wheelbase (shorter than the lengthening wagon stock) meant that guards got rattled around a bit too much at higher speeds.

An NPCS van train can be any length from one or two vans (one at least with a guard's compartment) to 16 or more vans. For your "minor" line it might be only a few cut off from something bigger on the Main line. So you can get away with a "whole train" with very little stock in it.

Not usually any goods type vans for any NPCS traffic - not even fully fitted XP vans - because their running gear rating would slow the whole train down (short wheelbases go slower). This might be over ridden by weight of traffic in peak (mainly Christmas) periods - but they would be marshalled together in "Specials" that were scheduled for slower runs (longer headways) - and they would be pushed aside to let higher class traffic get ahead of them.

No need to rush on getting "enough" stock - you can build up slowly... You'll soon find you have a whole load - although you'll never have "enough"... tongue.gif

cool.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+
Pennine MC
post 10 Apr 2018, 10:54
Post #9


Passed Fireman
****

Group: Members
Posts: 498
Joined: 26-August 06
From: Hull
Member No.: 840



QUOTE (Bear 1923 @ 9 Apr 2018, 23:42) *
/...Not usually any goods type vans for any NPCS traffic - not even fully fitted XP vans - because their running gear rating would slow the whole train down (short wheelbases go slower). This might be over ridden by weight of traffic in peak (mainly Christmas) periods - ....


10ft wheelbase Vanfits were frequently used for parcels traffic in the 1960s, and not just at peak periods


--------------------
Ian Fleming

Windcutter - wagonry, weathering and wittering

Hal o' the Wynd - philosophy, punditry and politics in the high-rolling world of toy trains


Stuartp: there was very little serious attempt to think outside a 17'6" long box.

Story of my (modelling) life :-)
Go to the top of the page
 
+

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS    Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 26th September 2020 - 11:18