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> Ground Signals - Please help me to understand their placement, Swapping running lines
Art Dent
post 10 Mar 2018, 15:45
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QUOTE (Bear 1923 @ 10 Mar 2018, 13:06) *
biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif Great! Still planning thumbsup.gif
While it is frustrating to be delayed this is the time to sort out all sorts of things - like the arrangement of signals and the reasons behind them.

It would probably be a good idea to start a fresh thread to ask for ideas on the layout arrangement.

It looks suspiciously like Marion's end is outside the roof space... dribble.gif

No, just extends below the purlin until it hits the inside of the roof panelling biggrin.gif

QUOTE
List 1.
1/1. I'm guessing that the layout is n gauge?

Nope - OO gauge. N is too fiddly for me, plus I grew up with Tri-ang and Hornby OO/HO (and fat fingers)!

QUOTE
1/2. If not the storgae area at the left is going to have issues with reaching to the far tracks. Also you won't get much in the outer sidings.

1/3. The storage is a good idea in principle - the next issue is how you arrange it.

The turntable end of the storage does not need to have points going to a single lead onto the TT. This could gain you length in the roads and save you on points by at least pairing the roads - maybe getting three together.

Already addressed although I'm not sure what you mean by "pairing the roads - maybe getting three together."

Considering many things for the fiddle yard/storage roads e.g.



Just two ideas (out of several). In 'B' the blue fiddle yard and purple branch line is at one level whilst the red main loop line is at baseboard level.

QUOTE
2/1. Instead of running straight to the corners and then making a sharp 90 degree turn I would recommend makingsweeping curves around the ends. You might even make the right hand end a semi-circular sweep all the way round with no straight in the middle.

2/2 Sweeping end curves will give you space on the outside to put features.

Plan 6b doesn't really show the curves properly - they are around 60-inch radius!

QUOTE
3/5 It would be much better to seperate your steam and diesel depots - possibly to opposite sides of the line. Your present plan would be far too cramped - to the extent of being useless. Both in reality and for your model there would be extremely little that could be done with it.

The difficulty with putting diesel and steam on opposite sides of the double track is that I haven't really got the room to do this - the roof slopes down at an angle of around 50 deg - so there is quite an abrupt cut-off to the usable space and the purlin (which is a quite beefy 4in x 10in piece of timber) runs more or less over the dotted line at the bottom of the diagram. The solution shown was the best I could come up with.

QUOTE
Conclusions

C. The terminal (goods and pass) stations are going to need loco facilities - so - an older steam shed. This will want good running connections into a reception (headshunt) and back out promptly onto the other line (quite possibly from the same headshunt. You want light loco moves to be able to get out of the way of through trains and terminus trains. (So the inbound route may well be a Facing Connection to the headshunt).

This is kind of where you lose me - I can't visualise what sort of arrangement you have in mind here.

Would it be possible to post a sketch of what you have in mind please?

Many thanks for your input Bear, I see that I am helping to take your mind of your bad hip (you have my sympathies there!)

Kindregards,

Art


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Bear 1923
post 10 Mar 2018, 16:49
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cool.gif Yes, the chance to waffle beats the boredom of pain. So thanks for that. Hopefully your questions also give an opportunity to explain things in ways that might hopefully be useful to others. If nothing else my drivel might be a cure for insomnia for some people.

Meanwhile...

Just taking your last point in the latest...

The thing is that, much as modellers love to have a loco shed, a turntable etc in reality loco depots occurred where they were needed - or - as close to where they were needed as the company could fit them in.
Consequently mostreally large terminals and junctions had a loco facility somewhere close by. There was often an adjustment to this - the depot didn't want to be too close. Too close could crampoperation.
So - for a terminus we might work out from the stops at the platform ends and find connections to either a yard or carriage sidings (maybe a short length of line) - then carriage sidings or yard - then a loco facility. This spreads things out along the line - giving room for the connections - and also room for practical signalling and the spaces it needs between things that need to be signalled.

Popping back to what needs to be signalled for a moment... All signals essentially protect movement toward them form things beyond them that you do not want the movement to bump into - like the planet when a signal protects a trap point..
The most common thing that needs to be protected is a set of points. These need to be protected in each direction that regular workingwill approach from. Therefore they may only need to be protected from one direction (in which case they will be a Facing Point and will need the protection to include routeing instruction in one way or another). At the other end of the spectrum they might need protecting in four directions - as in the caase of a trailing crossover = two Running/Stop Signals and two Non-Running Shunt Signals (one or both of which may need two discs). This is kind of where we started.

So...

What I am suggesting on the layout plan that you posted is that your complete double track oval represents the "rest of the world" running lines while your storage in that plan represents the line into passenger and goods terminals.
The passenger terminal at least could need a loco facility. This might only be in steam days. Diesels need less servicing and their fuel tanks can give longer range.
From this set-up I am picturing the termini, carriage sidings (maybe only one, possibly two) then a short(ish) run out through a tunnel (your scenic break) to emerge just before the junction. Then, after the junction locos coming out to be serviced would run Facing into a road from which they could shuffle into the rest of the depot. This road would be long enough to hold a loco, a number of loco coal wagons and a brake van - because the depot would need regular supply. This depot I would picture on the inside of the oval (more or less where you already have it..
Because of the depots location and the density of traffic exiting the depot to go back to the termini wouldbe arranged as a direct connection with a diamond crossing across the inner line of the oval so that locos could get straight across to the outer line without a shuffling shunt across a crossover.

If there is a diesel facility this might be tagged onto the end of the siding that's long enough for the supply of l;oco coal train. Doing this would shove the flamable diesel fuel away from the nasty steam locos with their habit of dropping hot ash when in a depot.
Alternatively it can be therised that there isn't room for the diesels here and their shiny new depot can be further out where land is available - in which case it can be fitted in wherever there is room. It can also be on whichever side of the line suits you.
One place I would look at putting either depot is in a corner on the outside of those nice 60" radius curves.

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I get the impression that you have discovered the principle of getting a much length of as many storage sidings as possible biggrin.gif

Clearly my previous comments have been based on the track plan I had available to work with. I appreciate that some of my comments might be redundent for you - they might (possibly) help someone else. Either way - it's much more fun waffling than sitting here waiting for the pain killers to work. biggrin.gif

Doesw this clarify?

I'm afraid that I'm not able to attach sketches to my e mail for you at present - because Plusnet have been useless since I switched from short contracts to a long one - and they do not want to be heroically helpful. mad.gif

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I was thinking that if you really want passenger platforms you could put a passenger only station on the long side opposite the junction side. This could have two platforms or a single island platform. It need not have any signalling arrangements - as a platform "In Section"

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Julian2011
post 18 Mar 2018, 18:02
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I hope I have been paying sufficient attention to matters aforesaid. I have plans for a small layout with a couple of stations with a place to rest wagons and load Goods. It isn't really large enough for the distances to be anything like realistic, but that is no new matter.

I have applied some of the wisdom, I have read, to one of the stations and it looks to be signally expensive quite crowded, but that has to be rather expected, given the space limits. However, it seems worth looking at what should be there and making the train moves comply with the system.

Anyrail didn't seem to have light signals, apart from the ground ones, so I used their semaphore ones to plot types, lights will be the order of the day. They were also limited to left turnout point doubles, so I had to "Flip" some of them to get right-hand turnouts. I have placed them all on the left side of the track they apply to and the posts point to the approaching loco, red lights on Ground Signals likewise. I used ground signals for as many local moves as possible, otherwise it would begin to look like "Great Birnam wood to high Dunsinane hill Shall come against him" has arrived again!




Hopefully most moves are covered, including reverses to get to the correct up/down lines. Distant signals are place by the lines they attend to, but any as do get planted will be much further away on the other side of scenic interferences.

Kind regards, but not expecting 10/10 for application.

Julian




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Bear 1923
post 19 Mar 2018, 20:14
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ohmy.gif

While you say that the Running Signals will in fact be colour light signals - I don't have a clue about where you have gone to with this.

Isn't your subject 1960s LMR? Almost without exception that era would be left hand running - with some very limited Reversible Running - which would not usually be the case with a layout similar to this.

The junction should be to the right of the sidings' connection.

Whatever you are up to you appear to have suddenly moved to signalling for bi-directional running - which in most applications didn't come in much until the 1980s at the earliest - except for the lines to Cornwall (in some areas).

Therefore a simple reduction to your forest would be to remove all the signals for the right hand line. Once the forest is thinned out a bit I might be able to determine what you are up to...


With limited length the likelihood of needing any distants (other than possibly slotted distants) is highly unlikely. Also splitting distants were not common except on express routes - and even there they weren't numerous.
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Julian2011
post 20 Mar 2018, 17:34
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Hi Bear,
Thank you for your reply and I take your comments on board, with interest. I have had another long look at what I put on the plan, in the light of your comments and see that quite a number can be eliminated.

The layout is OO, 4' x 6'4", so rather small, I apologise for being less than clear. It's very much Rule No.1 as one of the intentions is to give my 12 yr old an incling of some basic modelling / engineering skills and some fun of course. As such, I collected a number of locos and running stock which one or more of the family have been on [and in the case of a couple the link has been a little more tenuous, such as the BR Blue Sir Nigel Gresley A4, which was my daughter's first experience of a large Steam Loco - It passed us 10 yards away, pulling out of Dawlish, with a full compliment of coaches. Her jaw just dropped open, as she watched, stunned, followed by "Wow!!" as it thundered into the nearby tunnel. I couldn't resist that one. rolleyes.gif ] With that theme in mind, it is all post 1958, some Spam Cans, Castles, A4s and LMR but most is more recent. Clearly there is a vast time gulf between either end of the idea, so many, planned, contradictions and compromises exist. Where the signals for the layout are concerned, the lights seemed to be the better choice, as much rolling stock is relatively modern plus shorter posts, for when the Boards get stored behind a door. All that being said, I would like the correct processes to happen as closely as might be possible, within the limitations of such small Baseboards.

I had planned on left-hand running, with the exception of moves from / into the Sidings to the outer loop and the single line into the terminal platform. I had, incorrectly, thought that reverse running signals might be needed for none-standard running during repairs etc. I gather that isn't the case from your reply. That certainly makes the forest largely disappear and ground lights would seem to be sufficient for protecting the approach to the various points, sidings, crossover and single slip.



This looks far less cluttered and I'm pretty sure if the shunt-limit signals are not appropriate, as a shunt shouldn't be allowed onto a stretch of line where a train could approach, anyway.

Bear, you are most informative and my thanks go to you for your expertise.

Kind regards

Julian

PS. Apologies for the slow response, I couldn't find the Thread, once it left the Recent Posts folder. rolleyes.gif



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Bear 1923
post 20 Mar 2018, 19:40
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blink.gif Hmmm... That confused me!!! wacko.gif

I have relocated the last three posts (2 from Julian) to a new thread...

Signalling 4'x6' for the children., Relocated material from "help with ground signals"

I hope this is okay.

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Bear 1923
post 20 Mar 2018, 20:49
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https://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index...c=51066&hl=
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Bear 1923
post 22 Mar 2018, 15:23
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QUOTE (John Webb @ 22 Mar 2018, 09:38) *
"The Big Weekend" - extended opening 10am-5pm at St Albans South Signal Box
Sat 24th and Sunday 25th March


Conclusion of English Tourism Week - live steam passenger haulage - extended displays - light refreshments - sales etc.

FREE ENTRY - special award for our 20,000th visitor since public opening started in October 2008
will you be our lucky winner?

John Webb


This (or another date) is a huge opportunity for anyone wanting to begin to understand signalling and working.

B)
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