Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 Forum Rules DCC forum sponsored by:
6 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Sound and smoke - gimmicks or 'character'
pauliebanger
post 9 Jul 2012, 23:33
Post #1


Engine Driver
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 620
Joined: 11-February 09
From: Lincoln, UK
Member No.: 4,994



Hi Everyone,

Just pulling from a few threads I've posted on recently, I wondered what is the general view of sound and 'smoke' effects?

Are they just gimmicks or do they add character to the scene being set?

Here's a reminder of the sort of thing I'm asking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82JBSvaXnKE

Kind regards,

Paul

Go to the top of the page
 
+
Grifter_Guru
post 10 Jul 2012, 00:14
Post #2


Station Master
******


Group: Members
Posts: 1,848
Joined: 12-February 09
From: Cytringan
Member No.: 5,003



Seeing that, it certainly adds atmosphere, but what is missing, in my view, is the cylinder drain cock steam sometimes seen from starting..

The smoke does not "scale" too well, but for adding atmosphere it's "OK"..............


--------------------
Instructions ? WHAT?!?!?! A man don't need instructions! Oh............wait a minute...........................What's this bit for?
Vita imitatur artem imitantur vitae
How to Post Images From Flickr
Memorylane: The Website
Memory Lane: Continuing My Fathers Work
Signalling Memory Lane - The Detailed discussion Topic Q&A + Going Loopy with points
ViTrains: Class 37 "How-To"
How to Install OSX Mojave on X220 & T420
Go to the top of the page
 
+
Swamp Locos
post 10 Jul 2012, 00:40
Post #3


_____The 2nd Sealion_____ ____on the grassy knoll____
****



Group: Members
Posts: 226
Joined: 11-March 12
From: New Zealand
Member No.: 12,274



An interesting movie. I am still early on with my layout and just accumulating some dcc componants. But once I get a couple of decoder installs under my belt I will definately tackle atleast one sound install. Although perhaps having atleast two locos with sound doing their thing would be a minimum for atmosphere (???). I think the smoke does add to the feel of things, but as has been stated previously. it does not scale well. But looking past that fact, I still think it adds positively to the scene. Personally my feelings on me using smoke would be a no. Mainly because with sound (& light effects etc) you fit and forget. Where as with smoke you have to top up the fuel and as there is some combustion going on, presumabley there will also need to be some maintenance and cleaning associated with it. I also get distracted frequently (phone etc) and if I was away for a couple of hours and the fuel ran dry, would the smoke element survive that long?

On the whole I think it is a yes though thumbsup.gif

Jay smile.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+
Graham Plowman
post 10 Jul 2012, 03:16
Post #4


Regional Controller
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,409
Joined: 5-September 06
From: Sydney, Australia
Member No.: 869



Both sound and smoke add a whole new dimension to operating one's layout. This in turn adds a further level of enjoyment to operation.

Some may say that the smoke in Paul's video doesn't 'scale' too well. I think it's actually pretty good. Iwould however, have liked to see much stronger 'puffs' of smoke when the loco 'chuffs' hard.

What I would like to see is smoke for diesels - that would be a real challenge, especially at engine startup. If it could have the oily smell as well, even better!


--------------------
Graham Plowman
(British outline 00 - NCE PH PRO-R, Lenz 100 - DCC Sound and computer controlled signalling/interlocking of Ashprington Road with SSI software)
Go to the top of the page
 
+
Big Dave
post 10 Jul 2012, 08:17
Post #5


Company Chairman
Group Icon



Group: Plus+
Posts: 3,461
Joined: 17-April 09
From: Bude Cornwall
Member No.: 5,486



For me I love the smoke and looking at your film Paul that smoke looked very good and will look to trying more Zemo decoders if the do make the smoke more real.Light much the same being able to turn lights on and off again is a plus. Sound thats ok but I feel that you can only have two sound trains running at the same time or it gets a bit much.When my layout is up and running I will have 4 or5 running at the same time and I think I my need ear plugs.I am thinking of having whistles and horns work by reed switch, will save a bit of money to as fitting sound to all my trains like a lot of others is just not on cost wise. This is a good thread Paul and will be interesting to see what others have to say.

Regards Dave


--------------------

Dave



This planet needs a lot more kids that think taking a lawnmower's engine apart is more fun than playing video games.
Go to the top of the page
 
+
GoingUnderground
post 10 Jul 2012, 08:18
Post #6


Foreman
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 998
Joined: 18-August 08
From: Nottingham
Member No.: 3,458



QUOTE (Graham Plowman @ 10 Jul 2012, 04:16) *
....What I would like to see is smoke for diesels - that would be a real challenge, especially at engine startup. If it could have the oily smell as well, even better!......

ESU already do smoke for diesels in their own "Engineering Edition" range of locos. I don't know if anyone else does.

In my view the problem with smoke is that it doesn't scale at all. The smaller the scale the worse it looks. I'm not convinced that modern smoke generators for OO and HO are much better than the ones on my 1960s Triang models. It is difficult to generate enough smoke to look convincing at that scale. 7mm is better as there is normally so much more space available in the loco for the smoke generator and oil reservoir. The laws of physics in the real world take over as soon as the plume leaves the loco funnel or exhaust which destroys much of the illusion.

So for me smoke is still a gimmick, but sound does add that extra dimension.


--------------------
Regards,

Keith.

The only good locomotive or multiple unit has_collector_shoes, or pantographs, or both.
Go to the top of the page
 
+
Rhiwderin_Ray
post 10 Jul 2012, 08:34
Post #7


Regional Controller
*******


Group: Members
Posts: 2,182
Joined: 26-October 11
From: Plymouth, Devon, UK
Member No.: 11,355



QUOTE (GoingUnderground @ 10 Jul 2012, 09:18) *
The laws of physics in the real world take over as soon as the plume leaves the loco funnel or exhaust which destroys much of the illusion.

So for me smoke is still a gimmick, but sound does add that extra dimension.


I have to agree. I had a DC layout but the addition of even a basic chuff-chuff sound generator gave it a bit more atmosphere.

It is all very well having these extra effects but to me the illusion is spoilt an many models by lack of weathering and lack of signalling. It is better to get the basics right then worry about the frills.
For my next layout I think I will keep the rail lengths short just to get the clickety-click of the wheels on the joints! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif


--------------------
Regards
Ray


See some of my builds at "Ray's Building Site" https://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index...showtopic=20857 at "On My Workbench" section of this forum.

My new layout BELMONT
https://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index...showtopic=21976

"Knowledge is of no value unless shared with others"
Go to the top of the page
 
+
pauliebanger
post 10 Jul 2012, 09:05
Post #8


Engine Driver
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 620
Joined: 11-February 09
From: Lincoln, UK
Member No.: 4,994



QUOTE (Rhiwderin_Ray @ 10 Jul 2012, 09:34) *
I have to agree. I had a DC layout but the addition of even a basic chuff-chuff sound generator gave it a bit more atmosphere.

It is all very well having these extra effects but to me the illusion is spoilt an many models by lack of weathering and lack of signalling. It is better to get the basics right then worry about the frills.
For my next layout I think I will keep the rail lengths short just to get the clickety-click of the wheels on the joints! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif



Ray, thanks for your views.

You can have the clickety clack now on your existing track. Either the sound programmed onto your decoder (speed related), or get your dremmel out and make some light cuts in your exising rails and your wheels will click over them as if they are rail joints.

(See, I can do 'basic' too!).

Kind regards,

Paul
Go to the top of the page
 
+
pauliebanger
post 10 Jul 2012, 09:12
Post #9


Engine Driver
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 620
Joined: 11-February 09
From: Lincoln, UK
Member No.: 4,994



QUOTE (Graham Plowman @ 10 Jul 2012, 04:16) *
Both sound and smoke add a whole new dimension to operating one's layout. This in turn adds a further level of enjoyment to operation.

Some may say that the smoke in Paul's video doesn't 'scale' too well. I think it's actually pretty good. Iwould however, have liked to see much stronger 'puffs' of smoke when the loco 'chuffs' hard.

What I would like to see is smoke for diesels - that would be a real challenge, especially at engine startup. If it could have the oily smell as well, even better!



Hi Graham,

So, if I showed you my 'OO' Class 55 with sound and 'smoke' which blows out more quickly on start-up and acceleration and less so during cruise you would be happier?

OK video on the way.

I am currently testing some 'scented' fluid which alledgedly smells of Diesel exhaust - I'll let you know idc.

Kind regards,

Paul
Go to the top of the page
 
+
pauliebanger
post 10 Jul 2012, 09:31
Post #10


Engine Driver
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 620
Joined: 11-February 09
From: Lincoln, UK
Member No.: 4,994



QUOTE (Swamp Locos @ 10 Jul 2012, 01:40) *
... but as has been stated previously. it does not scale well. But looking past that fact, I still think it adds positively to the scene. Personally my feelings on me using smoke would be a no. Mainly because with sound (& light effects etc) you fit and forget. Where as with smoke you have to top up the fuel and as there is some combustion going on, presumabley there will also need to be some maintenance and cleaning associated with it. I also get distracted frequently (phone etc) and if I was away for a couple of hours and the fuel ran dry, would the smoke element survive that long?

On the whole I think it is a yes though thumbsup.gif

Jay smile.gif



Jay,

Thank you.

You raise some interesting points, and some clarification might be helpful.

'Smoke does not scale'. Yes that's the usual arguement. But it is not actually smoke, it's an illusion to suggest smoke, not intended to be entirely accurate. You obviously 'get' that as you think it adds to the scene.

Yes fluid needs topping up regularly. Two hours with a heating element not cooled by fluid will not be a good idea. Ha H!

Whether inattention melts your generator or loco (or both) depends on the features of your decoder, so choose wisely. Zimo decoders, as standard, will allow you to set a maximum running time for smoke generators so they will automatically turn off to protect your expensive kit if you forget to do so. Just requires a push of the F key to get it going again.

There is no combustion. A mixture of volatile fluids is heated in a vessel and the resulting 'emulsion' evaporates out to suggest smoke. That's why there is no health risk, no coking up to clean and no 'black' smoke possible.

Hope that helps,

Kind regards,
Paul
Go to the top of the page
 
+
Anthony566
post 10 Jul 2012, 09:38
Post #11


Why is'nt it easy !!
Group Icon


Group: Plus+
Posts: 2,155
Joined: 26-April 11
From: North East Coast - UK
Member No.: 10,330



I really like the whole sound and smoke thing... I dont have any steam loco's yet but i will get a few to run on my layout I do have sound fitted loco's smile.gif


--------------------
My Train set efforts....

Two Tunnels - A short section of track for loco testing and my first attempt at scenery
https://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index...p;hl=anthony566

My Layout Build
https://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index...showtopic=23502

My YouTube Page
http://m.youtube.com/user/anthony566

For Sale ...

I have a number of items for sale.

https://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?showforum=80
Go to the top of the page
 
+
Swamp Locos
post 10 Jul 2012, 09:40
Post #12


_____The 2nd Sealion_____ ____on the grassy knoll____
****



Group: Members
Posts: 226
Joined: 11-March 12
From: New Zealand
Member No.: 12,274



Hi Paul,

Thanks for the extra info. It sounds like you have all the safety bases covered smile.gif

So re Grahams comment, for a diesel exhaust aroma, could you not just use diesel?

Jay smile.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+
TonyDaly
post 10 Jul 2012, 09:55
Post #13


Regional Controller
*******



Group: Members
Posts: 2,149
Joined: 12-December 07
From: South West ireland
Member No.: 2,256



Thanks Paul. Really enjoyed that.
Some great atmosphere you had there thumbsup.gif

Sound to me is a great addition to Model Railways. Smoke I'm not so sure about.
Its just the way it looks in the smaller scales which is difficult to do I think but it will get better over time. Maybe its the smoke units which are the problem ?


--------------------
Regards.
Tony.
South West Ireland.

The only stupid questions are the one's you don't ask.

Go to the top of the page
 
+
pauliebanger
post 10 Jul 2012, 10:14
Post #14


Engine Driver
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 620
Joined: 11-February 09
From: Lincoln, UK
Member No.: 4,994



QUOTE (GoingUnderground @ 10 Jul 2012, 09:18) *
ESU already do smoke for diesels in their own "Engineering Edition" range of locos. I don't know if anyone else does.


Not pushing ESU again are you? Ha ha!

I can't afford their prices.

Plenty of others were there before ESU, Zimo amongst them.

Here's an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPnmpd9_774

I have a Zimo MX645 in a Class 55 in 'OO' which can do the same. ESU are just not up to proper smoke control without further expensive kit. I don't have either the budget or the space for all this.

Here's a Roco steamer which uses a Zimo decoder to good effect. (Roco dropped ESU decoders in 2010 and switched to Zimo).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endsc...QMCtds&NR=1


Kind regards,

Paul
Go to the top of the page
 
+
Big Dave
post 10 Jul 2012, 10:14
Post #15


Company Chairman
Group Icon



Group: Plus+
Posts: 3,461
Joined: 17-April 09
From: Bude Cornwall
Member No.: 5,486



Paul I do not know if you have heard or seen it but Mapplins do a smoke oil that is water based [it is used in the fog maker for dicos] it comes with i think 4 or 5 scents. I have not used it in a train yet but did when doing model boats. You got 5lts for about 16 which was a very cheap way to have smoke. I still have some when I have some track down again I will give it a try, it did not work with all smoke gens some just spat it out.Think it deepens what voltage you put to then you get smoke.I do like the sound of how the decoder makes the smoke work, and in time will give them a go.
Dave


--------------------

Dave



This planet needs a lot more kids that think taking a lawnmower's engine apart is more fun than playing video games.
Go to the top of the page
 
+

6 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS    Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 5th August 2020 - 10:21