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> Triang Hornby, Advice about using Triang Hornby
Ken Bacon
post 27 Apr 2013, 16:01
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I have the opportunity of getting a Triang Hornby coach which would fit in perfectly

All my rollinmg stock is curent Hornby.

Will the Triang Hornby coach work with the current Hornby rolling stock.
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kristopher1805
post 27 Apr 2013, 17:09
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Essentially this is quite old, Triang become Triang Wrenn, then Triang Hornby then Hornby a lot of years ago (someone will correct this more accurately. Essentially the package is the same and quite a few models carry over, my father uses some older Hornby coaches mainly because the colour is correct because they were the latest thing around back in 1963, however you will usually find plastic wheels which can be swapped out and large loop Rovex (owners of Triang) tension lock couplings but these are still used today by the Railroad range and should generally couple with new NEM socket micro tension locks but can sometimes be tight.

If using code 75 track there may be issues but I guess you are using Hornby track to code 100 which is current version and this should be OK, finally these older coaches may have a little more drag so perhaps you can only pull 8 instead of 13, then again I suspect your trains are normally rather shorter.

So yes they should;d be OK but do not pay too much as modern available coaching stock is soooooo very much better in just the last few years.
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sarah
post 28 Apr 2013, 12:08
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QUOTE (kristopher1805 @ 27 Apr 2013, 17:09) *
Essentially this is quite old, Triang become Triang Wrenn, then Triang Hornby then Hornby a lot of years ago (someone will correct this more accurately.) Essentially the package is the same and quite a few models carry over, my father uses some older Hornby coaches mainly because the colour is correct because they were the latest thing around back in 1963, however you will usually find plastic wheels which can be swapped out and large loop Rovex (owners of Triang) tension lock couplings but these are still used today by the Railroad range and should generally couple with new NEM socket micro tension locks but can sometimes be tight.

If using code 75 track there may be issues but I guess you are using Hornby track to code 100 which is current version and this should be OK, finally these older coaches may have a little more drag so perhaps you can only pull 8 instead of 13, then again I suspect your trains are normally rather shorter.

So yes they should;d be OK but do not pay too much as modern available coaching stock is soooooo very much better in just the last few years.



OK...

A Brief History Of Tri-ang (Rovex)


Rovex (1949-1951) was bought by Lines Bros. Ltd (Tri-ang. Three Lines Brothers, and three Lines make a Tri-angle.

1952-1965 Tri-ang Railways. In 1965, Meccano Ltd (Hornby Dublo, etc.) were taken over by Lines Bros (Tri-ang). In an "ammalgamation", the Tri-ang Railways Range, plus a few Hornby Dublo Items at first, became Tri-ang Hornby.

G&R Wrenn Ltd. were also taken into the Lines Bros. "Empire". They later took over most of the Hornby Dublo Tools, and sold these models as "Tri-ang Wrenn".

1965-1972 Tri-ang Hornby Model Railways. In 1971-72 Lines Bros. Ltd went into liquidation. The Railway Division (Rovex Industries) was taken over by Dunbee, Combex, Marx (DCM). As the "Tri-ang" trademark was bought by another company, the railways became "Hornby Railways".

G & R Wrenn Ltd. bought their own shares back, and became independent again. The railway range became "Wrenn Railways".

1972-1997 Hornby Railways. (Various Logos used.) (DCM went into liquidation in 1980, and Rovex was bought out by the management.)

1997- date Hornby. The shortened name was introduced. Most manufacturing was moved to China C 1996.


Wheel Standards...

Tri-ang Railways used a course wheel until C1970, when the introduction of "System 6" track, which was basically Code 100, led to a finer wheel standard being introduced.

Early Tri-ang Wheels were plastic, with sleeves, which fitted over a steel axle. These also usually have "open axle boxes" where the ends of the axle can be seen.
These are awkward to convert, and are best avoided, and left to those who run them on Tri-ang Track ("Standard", Series 3, and "Super 4".).

Later Tri-ang Hornby rolling stock (Post 1962) mainly had plastic wheels on metal pin-point axles. These are in the main easily converted by inserting new wheelsets. To maintain coupling height, the wheels need to be very close to the same diameter.

All pin-point axles have a similar "drag", it is the earlier "Sleeved" axles that have an increased drag, especially if not properly lubricated.

Anything Tri-ang Hornby made after 1971 should be OK on Hornby Track, and usually on PECO Set Track and similar as made for Mainline, Airfix, Dapol, etc.

PECO Streamline Code 100 has been made finer over the years, and newer points may be fine enough in the check rails and frogs to cause the wheels to ride up ("bounce" over the point!).

It is usually the points and crossings that cause trouble. Though the early course wheel-sets can ride on the sleepers off some finer scale track!


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Ken Bacon
post 28 Apr 2013, 16:34
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THanks Kristopher and Sarah

Regards

Ken
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Robert Evans
post 29 Apr 2013, 06:41
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G'day, Ken,

Your issue with older wheel standards on second-hand models is not uncommon. My model railway club regularly receives donated models which we upgrade to work on modern code 100 track. (These older models tend to be relatively child-proof, suitable for use by young visitors.)

Here is a link to our web page which has an appended pdf explaining how we modify older rolling stock: http://stlukeschurch.com.au/st-lukes-railway-modellers-club/

Good luck with your coaches.

Regards,

Rob
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SRman
post 29 Apr 2013, 08:59
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Some of the Triang-Hornby rolling stock from the '70s and '80s, while still essentially the same as before, had wheelsets moulded to square section axles. These can't be regauged (eased out on their axles like the earlier plastic wheels on metal axles). However, as with the earlier type, they were pin-point axles and can be simply replaced with more modern wheels and axles - metal wheels will give better running and deposit less dirt on the rails. If you insist on retaining the plastic wheels on metal axles (if that is what is already fitted), they can be eased outwards to run through the finer clearances on modern track and the plastic flanges can be filed down a little to avoid running on the rail chairs - note that you don't even have to file them perfectly round as the coach is not actually running on the flanges!

As Sarah points out, if you wish to replace the wheels, you will need to choose wheels of approximately the same diameter over the tyres (not the flanges) to maintain the same ride and coupling heights.

Many Triang-Hornby coach types remained in production for many years with the minor changes to wheel standards and different finishes. The BR mark 1s, for example, first appeared in around 1963 and remained in production until very recently, with a major upgrade to their finishes only happening in recent years, including removing the moulded paint guide lines and fitting flush glazing, plus newer bogies and finer wheels and with a nice painted finish instead of self-coloured plastics.

The early GWR clerestory coaches are still in the Thomas range, as are the 'nondescript' Collett/Maunsell-style coaches.

In short, as all the others here have indicated, there should be very little reason why the Triang-Hornby coach should not fit in with any other stock on the OP's layout.

smile.gif
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mr angry
post 29 Apr 2013, 12:43
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I have found that anything with the pinpoint bearings, ie from approx 1962 onwards, is OK on current Hornby code 100 track.

On the earlier stuff, with the split wheels and open axleboxes, I have found variations. I have 3 of the Triang 9 inch long coaches and two of them are fine but the third did bump along the sleepers so I filed ther flanges down slightly and that is OK now as well. This one had the earlier Triang (Mark 2?) coupling with the pointy end on the hook and the open end on the bar, the other two had the later type, would this be significant?

Locos too, I have found variations, a Triang 3F with solid wheels is happy on my current Hornby tracy but a diesel shunter with what looked like the same wheels had to have the flanges turned down.
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sarah
post 30 Apr 2013, 09:40
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QUOTE (mr angry @ 29 Apr 2013, 12:43) *
I have found that anything with the pinpoint bearings, ie from approx 1962 onwards, is OK on current Hornby code 100 track.

On the earlier stuff, with the split wheels and open axleboxes, I have found variations. I have 3 of the Triang 9 inch long coaches and two of them are fine but the third did bump along the sleepers so I filed ther flanges down slightly and that is OK now as well. This one had the earlier Triang (Mark 2?) coupling with the pointy end on the hook and the open end on the bar, the other two had the later type, would this be significant?

Locos too, I have found variations, a Triang 3F with solid wheels is happy on my current Hornby track but a diesel shunter with what looked like the same wheels had to have the flanges turned down.


Hi Mr. Angry.

Yes, that is significant. The wheel standards became a bit finer in the flange over time...

With Locos, the wheels can also be changed (Not quite so simple...), but the very last Margate made wheels used an axle with thinner ends where the wheel is.

The newer Margate made axles are the same diameter as the originals from 1952, except for the ends, and can be fitted with the original gear wheel.


Tri-ang Couplings...

ROVEX 1949-1952. These couplings (Mk1) are a fixed loop at one end, and a conterweighted "dropping" hook at the other. They couple automatically, but only uncouple "manually". Rolling stock only couples one way around, "Not Universal". Very Corse Wheel Standards.

Tri-ang Railways 1952-Late 1958. These couplings (MkIIa and MkIIb.) (The difference is in the upright stricker (That pushes the couplings up on an uncoupling ramp.) on the hook. MkIIb have the "half Moon" weight added to the bottom.) are a "half" or "Open" loop with a lifting hook at both ends ("Universal"). They couple and uncouple automatically. Very Corse Wheel Standards.

Tri-ang Railways (etc.) 1959-. These couplings (MkIII) are a "Closed" loop with a lifting hook at both ends ("Universal"). The hooks have a "return" that engages on a "ridge" on the bar. "Tension-Lock" (An enlarged version of the coupling Tri-ang first used on the TT Gauge Range.) They couple and uncouple automatically. Wheel Standards becoming finer over time.

The MKIII coupling has had a few varients over time, including different size and profiled hooks, plastiic loops, and the "Easy Uncouple" version that had a slot in the coupling bar "Ridge"".


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Martin Brown
post 21 Oct 2015, 09:01
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QUOTE (kristopher1805 @ 27 Apr 2013, 17:09) *
Essentially this is quite old, Triang become Triang Wrenn, then Triang Hornby then Hornby a lot of years ago (someone will correct this more accurately. Essentially the package is the same and quite a few models carry over, my father uses some older Hornby coaches mainly because the colour is correct because they were the latest thing around back in 1963, however you will usually find plastic wheels which can be swapped out and large loop Rovex (owners of Triang) tension lock couplings but these are still used today by the Railroad range and should generally couple with new NEM socket micro tension locks but can sometimes be tight.

If using code 75 track there may be issues but I guess you are using Hornby track to code 100 which is current version and this should be OK, finally these older coaches may have a little more drag so perhaps you can only pull 8 instead of 13, then again I suspect your trains are normally rather shorter.

So yes they should;d be OK but do not pay too much as modern available coaching stock is soooooo very much better in just the last few years.

I am using code 75 and yes, there certainly are issues. This old wagon does a surprisingly good cleaning job but it is difficult to keep it on the track. You certainly can't push it with an engine!

Mine has pin-point axles which are 25.5mm long but I measure my Hornby axles as 24.5 or 25mm - which is too short to fit the R344. Does anyone know of a source of 25.5mm axles suitable for code 75? I would happily live with the wrong size wheel and therefore the wrong height coupling.

An alternative would be to change the bogies but they seem to be tubular brass riveted in. Any solution would be welcome. I would love to stop the rattling over the sleepers and the de-railing on points.
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DavidBroad
post 22 Oct 2015, 02:30
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The "Long" 11"? Triang Hornby coaches will take the current pin point wheelsets with no problem unless the pin point holes are severely worn, however they will sit 1mm approx too high. I drill out the rivets and reduce the bogie "Pillar" on the underframe by about 1mm. I have backto back issues with the latest wheelsets on code 100 and I regauge to 14.25 mm sliding fit using a home made back to back gauge.

The Triang open axlebox wheels can be run on code 100 or code 75 if you space the wheel halves apart with a thin washer 0.5 mm or so thick and turn down the flanges by spinning in a drill chuck against a file. The pin point axle wheels are useless on code 75 as you can't increase the back or turn down the flanges, and the metal tyred 1980s square axle wheels are a joke. I have cut and sleeved the axles on occasion to get the Back to back within sanity, it was 13mm on one I had, but life is too short.

The Triang Mazac pre 1960 driving wheels can have their flanges turned down to run on code 75, but not the the steel tyre ones

The old metal loop tension lock couplings are very good, you can tweak them up or down unlike later ones.

Actually the Triang Mk1 coach was not a bad model, and with the interior painted and modern wheels it is better than some 21st century offerings, shame they never did a SO or TSO. I used to cut up 2 X BSKs to make a full brake and a TSO, and still run a 7 coach Triang rake
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Martin Brown
post 22 Oct 2015, 08:50
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QUOTE (DavidBroad @ 22 Oct 2015, 03:30) *
........... The pin point axle wheels are useless on code 75 as you can't increase the back or turn down the flanges............


Thanks David. That was pretty well the conclusion I had come to.

It looks like I will need to replace the bogies. Hornby Mk3 bogies look like they may fit straight in and perhaps I can get away with 11mm wheels to keep the height nearly right.

Another thought I had was simply to cut a large enough hole in the bottom of a long wheelbase rigid wagon, insert the felt holder and dispense with the R344 completely.

Any more ideas anyone?
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Graham Plowman
post 23 Oct 2015, 05:34
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QUOTE (SRman @ 29 Apr 2013, 18:59) *
Some of the Triang-Hornby rolling stock from the '70s and '80s, while still essentially the same as before, had wheelsets moulded to square section axles. These can't be regauged...


This was the 'Silverseal' label which dates from the mid 1970's. They were truly awful wheels!

QUOTE (SRman @ 29 Apr 2013, 18:59) *
The early GWR clerestory coaches are still in the Thomas range


This is the 'old grumpy' coach. My son has one. The paint finish is actually very good - far better than the original Tri-Ang version. Shame about the buffers being inserted straight into holes in the buffer beam instead of proper shanks. These have always run on BR MKI bogies.

QUOTE (SRman @ 29 Apr 2013, 18:59) *
, as are the 'nondescript' Collett/Maunsell-style coaches.


These date from the late 1970's/early 1980's. They are actually models of Collett coaches and not bad representations at that, if only a bit lacking in detail.
They were supplied for many years as 'Southern' coaches, but of course, they are completely wrong for this. They also had BR MKI bogies instead of proper SR bogies.

A word of note on Hornby MKI bogies prior to the current range: like Lima, Hornby always used a 3 spring variant of BR MKI bogie. This type was only ever used under sleeping cars due to the extra weight supporting requirements. Replica/Mainline/Bachmann have always correctly used the two-spring variant, although I haven't checked the Bachmann sleeping cars. The new Hornby MKI's use the correct two-spring bogie, same as Replica/Mainline/Bachmann.


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sarah
post 7 Nov 2015, 11:00
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QUOTE (Martin Brown @ 22 Oct 2015, 08:50) *
Thanks David. That was pretty well the conclusion I had come to.

It looks like I will need to replace the bogies. Hornby Mk3 bogies look like they may fit straight in and perhaps I can get away with 11mm wheels to keep the height nearly right.

Another thought I had was simply to cut a large enough hole in the bottom of a long wheelbase rigid wagon, insert the felt holder and dispense with the R344 completely.

Any more ideas anyone?


The R344 Track Cleaning Car was based on an early Transcontinetal Box Car. It uses small diameter wheel sets. These are the same as used on the Freightliner wagons, and Cartic car carriers.

The Freightliner wagons are still in production....so modern versions of the wheels should be available?


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sarah
post 7 Nov 2015, 11:04
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QUOTE (Graham Plowman @ 23 Oct 2015, 05:34) *
>SNIPPED

A word of note on Hornby MKI bogies prior to the current range: like Lima, Hornby always used a 3 spring variant of BR MKI bogie. This type was only ever used under sleeping cars due to the extra weight supporting requirements. Replica/Mainline/Bachmann have always correctly used the two-spring variant, although I haven't checked the Bachmann sleeping cars. The new Hornby MKI's use the correct two-spring bogie, same as Replica/Mainline/Bachmann.


Now that is interesting.

As the first "scale length" Mk1 coach Tri-ang Railways made was the Second Class Sleeping Car, in 1962, that would explain the use of the 3-spring bogie.
Correct for the first models....

(The very first Tri-ang Sleeping Cars have the open-axleboxes, with sleeved axle wheels. Then closed axleboxes with sleeved axle wheels. Then finally C1963, steel pin point axles with plastic disk wheels!)


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Graham Plowman
post 7 Nov 2015, 11:25
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I have since checked Bachmann - they are using Commonwealth bogies.


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