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> What signalling, if any is appropriate for this layout in N Gauge?, Signally question
David Pennington
post 9 Jan 2018, 20:22
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Hi there. Been in US outline for many years. Just starting out with a British outline N Gauge layout based on the LMS, somewhere (not got that far yet).

I am wondering what signalling there would be on this branch terminus, if any. I guess it might be run just on a token but I would like to put some signalling in.

Here is the layout - 4' 3" x 1'


My guess (knowing nothing) is probably an outer home beyond the points and a repeater protecting the level crossing. The two X show where I think they might be.

Please let know how close I am - smile.

David
Main man on the Sunset & North Eastern Railroad - now into British N Gauge
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Bear 1923
post 10 Jan 2018, 09:09
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You will need to work through this explanation a few times.
Alternatively you could use it to cure insomnia.

Just to try to deal with the signals and make little comment about the track layout or having a loco shed at a tiny location (real world style not just N gauge).

Because you refer to a Home Signal I am going to assume that your idea is for an arrangement with semaphore signals and Block working with a Signalbox. (This could have colour light signals - for some signals at least - but that would complicate/obscure the basics).

It's a bit odd having double track from the left and only a platform on the lower side of the "loop"/passing facility. The more possible way of signalling this "realistically" is to decide that the lower of the two lines from the left is the Passenger Carrying, Running Line, Single Line. The upper side of the loop will not be either a Running Line or a Passenger Carrying Line. This mean s that all trains carrying passengers will be using the Single Line throughout - with access to the platform. This means that the Stop Signal (not "repeater") protecting the level crossing - and controlling further movement to the right has its x in the correct place - on the Wrong Side. UK Running Signals (The "big ones") are normally placed on the left side of the line to which they apply or above it no further to the right than the centre line. Anything further right is "Wrong Side". You would see plenty of examples of Wrong Side but there is always a reason why they are not "right side". In this case the Stop Signal would be on the platform because of the Single Line working through the platform (plus other reasons).

I notice that you haven't marked a Signalbox. ohmy.gif I'm going to assume that you will rectify this by putting a small box by the points for the loco shed. This is the best place for the Signalman to exchange tokens with train crews passing from the Block Section on one side of the Box to the Block Section on the other side of the Box.

The smallness of the layout means that you will only have a small proportion of the signals the Box would control.

Working from left to right ---
    a train would approach a Distant signal first. Because this is a Single Line this will be a Fixed Distant. That is it will only ever show "Caution". It will have no lever in the Box. You won't be modelling it.
    There is a slight chance that there would then be an Advanced Starter (Stop Signal) for the opposite direction. You would see the back of this signal. This isn't very likely and you're not going to model it anyway.
    Next there is a small chance that you would come onto an Outer Home Signal - provided there was the Advanced Starter for the opposite direction. You would see the front of this signal. This isn't very likely (unlikely without the opposite direction Advanced Starter)and you're not going to model it anyway.
    Now we will trundle forward onto your layout

    We should note that all this time you have been on a single track or with a Non-Running Line on your left. This is "solving" the signalling issues mentioned above. In my interpretation the extra line on the left as you move left to right into your station area is going to be some form of Non-Running Line - and Non Passenger. We might create a story that it's a link to a quarry or some such. This means that it will be signalled with Non-Running signals ("little ones" - which may still be - small - arms on posts for sighting - or may be ground signals).

    Meanwhile, back on the Single Line / Passenger Running Line we will be approaching the points into the loop. (The loop is also Non-Running).
    Here we will model a Home Signal for Running into the platform. This would be a yard before the toe of the points . (The toe is the pointy end).
    We will also model with this a Non-Running signal for the divergence to the left into the loop. This could be on the ground at the foot of the post or on a bracket to the left of the main post. (This signal would only be cleared into the loop when a train was at a stand or almost at a stand).
    You probably have the two lines here close together with no means of fitting a signal post between them - so this signal (Stop/Home Signal and shunt to loop) would end up Wrong Side.

    Across both tracks on the left of the Non-Running Line there will be a Non-Running (Stop) signal to protect the points into the loop. The longer the theoretical ("quarry") line is the more likely it is that this would be a short (Non-Running) arm on a post. It might be quite high - but it will NOT be higher than the arms of the Running Signal across the track.

    We have now arrived on your layout and at the station area. We have also protected the approach with Fixed Signals. (Fixed in this sense means that they are on posts fixed in the grounds - not that they don't give stop/go instructions.

    (Fixed Signals - signals on posts or planted in the ground - are distinct from hand signals and verbal instructions. In my understanding USA practice uses a lot less Fixed Signals (except in congested areas) and relies a lot more on telling crews to proceed to a mile post or other specific place. This is a result of the vastly different lengths of line between the UK and USA. Hand Signals and Verbal instructions would be a significant part of working this layout).

    Okay...

    If we now move into the platform we will see the back of the Stop Signal that lets trains out of the platform in the opposite direction. This will be on the platform where it will protect the route from the loop.
    Across from this signal between the loop and the sidings there will be a Non-Running signal - probably a ground signal dummy. Almost certainly with two arms/discs (depending on design). This would have its back to us. It would control movement in the opposite direction from the loop to the Running Line in the opposite direction to ours and to the "quarry" line.
    If the dummy/ground signal has two arms/discs stacked the top arm will signal the route to the left out to the Running Line while the bottom arm will signal the route to the right to the quarry line.
    The location here pretty much precludes a signal with a post.

    Going back to where we were running into the platform...
    Next on the Running Line we will come to your correct Stop Signal that protects the Level Crossing.
    Unless there is room between the level crossing and the loco shed points for a loco to stand there will also be a shunt signal with the Running Signal for controlling movement into the loco shed. This is likely to be a ground signal at the foot of the post.

    The gates would probably be hand worked/walked at a small location like this - unless there was a very large amount (for the line) of shuffling about across the crossing - and a lack of alternative road across the line close by.

    On the loop there should also be a Non-Running signal to protect the Level Crossing. This would be on the left of the loop as seen on the approach to it. It could be a short arm on a post, a ground signal/dummy or even a ground signal/dummy sat up on a post to make it more visible.
    OOPS! In fact, however it is arranged this would be another two "arm/disc" signal - top to the left/creamery and bottom to the right/Running Line.

    The gates get red targets - which are "Stop" signals in their own right.

    Beyond the crossing...

    Way over to the left the exit from the creamery would probably have a Stop Board - a fixed sign. Design would vary by date and company. This will have its back to us.

    Similarly there might be a Stop Board with its back to us for movement out of the loco shed. This would be on our right. There is some chance that this would be a ground signal.

    Continuing...

    We would then pass the Signalbox on our right and then run through the points from the loop onto the Single Line.

    About a yard beyond the toe of these points we would see the back of the Stop Signal, Running Signal that, in the opposite direction, protects the Level Crossing and both the platform line and the loop.
    So this signal will be similar to the one that controlled our entry to the platform as we approached. It will have the Running Signal/Stop Signal into the platform and a Non-Running Signal into the loop.

    At least a train length (probably off the layout) beyond this we would come to a Stop Signal. This would be the Section Signal which would control our movement outward into the Single Line Block Section.
    This Signal will be provided because of movements on the right hand side of the level crossing.
    In order to pass this signal we must be in possession of the Single Line Token for the Block Section ahead.

    When we had passed into the Section we would see the back of the protecting Stop Signal for movements in the opposite direction.
    This would then be followed by the back of the opposite direction Distant Signal. (Another Fixed Distant).


Phew!

I don't think I've missed anything. I hope that followed through sequentially that will make sense for you.

I can pretty much guarantee that you won't get it all in one (or three) hits. It takes a bit of time to figure it out step-by-step. A good move would be to draw out the line on a long sheet of paper and then use a model moving along it so that you can think it through as a Driver. This isn't being silly - it's how I've trained real Signalmen (aka "Signallers) in the real world. (It was also a good way of frightening managers away :-)

One possibility is to scheme it through thinking of how the layout would be full size - with real lengths. There is a chance that real length would add some signals - but I've kept the number down (and kept the shunts lower) so that you can still see the trains between the signals. There can be a risk of ending up with a forest of signals - or, in N gauge at least a coppice. ;-)

cool.gif

PS Apologies for not giving you a pretty diagram or nice pics - my system won't do that. Perhaps John or others could do this for you.
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Bear 1923
post 10 Jan 2018, 09:16
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As for location... You might find Cumbria interesting... cool.gif
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David Pennington
post 11 Jan 2018, 13:40
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How, thanks for that. It will take some time for me to digest and understand. I will come back here with a map showing my understanding. I would appreciate it if you could comment - but it isn't likely to happen until the weekend.
Thanks again.
David


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Bear 1923
post 11 Jan 2018, 15:20
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smile.gif
I suggest that you make a number of copies of the map, number them to keep track of trial runs and then work through the description a few times. If you find that you're getting the same result each time - you could be getting it right! (Or huh.gif I might have misled you...).

Have fun with it. That's the important thing.

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Julian2011
post 11 Jan 2018, 18:14
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Thank you Bear,
I found the information very ... err ... informative and interesting to have explanations of not only what might be required, but reasons too.

I thought it might be interesting to plot out what you wrote, using lights and feathers, which seemed simple and [maybe] clearer than some of the other icons available. I left out the "off-scene" signals, although I might extend the plan later, to include them.

I turned the Icons to the direction they were facing

Signal Placement 1 by Julian Redfern, on Flickr

I certainly learned a lot from the exercise and will be revisiting some plans I have for a small layout.

Kind regards

Julian


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David Pennington
post 11 Jan 2018, 22:14
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Firstly, the intention is that this is a small terminus. Secondly, it is 1950s so probably semaphore, not colour light. Lastly, I assume that the signals on the goods yard, etc. would be ground signals, or is that wrong?


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Bear 1923
post 12 Jan 2018, 07:48
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QUOTE
'Julian2011' [/color]date='11 Jan 2018, 18:14' post='599426']
Thank you Bear,
I found the information very ... err ... informative and interesting to have explanations of not only what might be required, but reasons too.

I thought it might be interesting to plot out what you wrote, using lights and feathers, which seemed simple and [maybe] clearer than some of the other icons available. I left out the "off-scene" signals, although I might extend the plan later, to include them.

I turned the Icons to the direction they were facing

Signal Placement 1 by Julian Redfern, on Flickr

I certainly learned a lot from the exercise and will be revisiting some plans I have for a small layout.

Kind regards

Julian


Julian

At quick glance you have only missed out one signal in the modelled area. I will let you figure out which one. This is the best way for people to get their heads around what goes where.
The other thing is that you have shown some signals as multiple aspect (Running) signals that would be position light or semaphore (Non-Running) shunt signals in this particular context. Some of them could be as shown if the layout were bigger/longer.

I would be interested to see your development of a layout. Have you seen Shaun's "Ripley" thread?

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Bear 1923
post 12 Jan 2018, 08:06
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QUOTE (David Pennington @ 11 Jan 2018, 22:14) *
Firstly, the intention is that this is a small terminus. Secondly, it is 1950s so probably semaphore, not colour light. Lastly, I assume that the signals on the goods yard, etc. would be ground signals, or is that wrong?


David

OOPS! wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif

Terminus... Why did I think it was a through station???

This does change the signalling a little bit... huh.gif

I will try to do a fresh example later today.

Certainly the signals would near certainly be semaphore. Also the only signal dealing with the loop and yard would be the one protecting the level crossing. You're right, this would be a ground signal - or, as it's LMS, there's a slight possibility that it would be a 2 foot arm - however, if it is a raised signal it is more likely to be a dummy sat up on a post. (This would facilitate sighting). Heading the other way there might be another dummy protecting the level crossing because of the creamery siding. This would be Wrong Side and more likely to be sat on a post. It would be likely to be work with the left-to-right dummy on the same lever. Basically all that would be happening would be that these two dummies would be interlocked with the level crossing gates. In pre-LMS days - and to some extent into them the Non-Running Line protection of the level crossing might have been achieved solely by the targets on the gates - which would mean a full target on each gate rather than half targets at the ends of the gated making up the full target when the gates were shut. Using targets as protection would lend toward there being four lamps on the gates. I'll get back with more insomnia cure later...

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Bear 1923
post 12 Jan 2018, 09:45
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Back sooner than expected. ohmy.gif

Working right to left into the terminus...

Approaching from way off scene we would first see a Fixed Distant.

What happens next is a bit of a moot point. It depends on the specific company that originally signalled the line - plus later amendments - and weight of traffic (aka line occupation) The quieter the situation is the less signalling there could be. However, it is always the case with this last point that the line might have been signalled for very little traffic which subsequently expanded - or vice versa.
Not that you will actually need to model these signals - because we're not onto the layout yet...

Nevertheless... I've just checked my pics of Carog on the Llangollen Railway (excellent line in my experience). The heritage Western pattern there is for the first signal in from the Distant to be an Outer Home which would control our movement toward the terminus.
The thing is that at this stage we are still on a single track - on which movements can occur in the opposing direction. We do not want to bump into one of these!
This Outer Home signal would be 440 yards from the Inner Home Signal. The Inner Home would be about a yard before the toe of the points for the loop.
This 440 yards is the Clearing Point. Before the terminus may accept a movement (Regulation 4) toward it from the previous Block Post this Clearing Point must have no obstruction in it. Acceptance will release the train token (or staff) in Electric Token Block (ETB) Which is the easiest way of doing things with your semaphore signalling. (Allowing that this is only theory for you).
    (Technically at a small place the LMS might still be using Staff and Ticket but ETB is easier for anyone interested in the=is waffle).[/list]
    Once an inbound movement has been accepted and the token released the terminus signalman is not permitted to make any alteration to the Clearing Point until the approaching movement has either cleared inside the Clearing Point or come to a dead stand at the protecting signal (the Outer Home in this case). This stops movements bumping into each other. This also potentially seriously reduces the capacity of the line. This is one reason why lines tended to be double except where traffic/revenue didn't justify the initial costs.

    So... Inbound...
    Once we've passed inside the Outer Home we may see the back of a Starter, potentially an Advanced Starter that would control the movements of trains leaving the terminus and entering the Single Line Block Section. At Carog this signal has an additional subsidiary signal beneath it. This is a Shunt Ahead signal. (I might come back to this later).

    Trundling in - slowly - the next signal will be the Inner Home/Stop Signal which will have one form or another of shunt signal for movements into the loop and everything off of it.

    As the layout is shown and with the lengths shown this signal (two "arms") is the only right-to-left signal that needs to be modelled - except for the possible dummy protecting the level crossing in the loop - as before...)

    There is no need for a signal at the far end of the platform to protect the loco release crossover/other end of the loop. The release would either be on ground levers as at Rawtenstal on the East Lancs Railway or on the Signalbox frame. If on a ground lever the Trailing Points in the platform line could be "trailable" (i.e. they could be pushed through in a trailing direction if they were set for the loop). Alternatively they could be bolted and detected by the Signalbox frame - as occurred at Llandudno on platform 1 (until they removed it before I could get more pics of it )
    Anyway, the issue is that there is no need for another inbound signal into the platform.
    Ummm... So, apart from putting the signal Wrong Side your original signal protecting the platform line was correct biggrin.gif

    I've already covered what goes on for signalling the loop.at the level crossing. Due to the shortness of the set-up there's no great need for a further signal from the loop on the right hand side of the crossing. The creamery siding would act as the Trap point arrangement for the loop and yard. There might be an additional Trap Point either for both sidings... However, if anything is to be stabled unattended in the dead-end spur of the loop it would be more likely that a Trap would be provided on the loop on the left-to-right approach to the level crossing. A de-railer might be used if the gate targets were used instead of a dummy (as previously).

    You also got it right that there would be a Stop Signal for departing left-to-right from the platform. If you have time and inclination I'd be intrigued to know why you described this signal as a "repeater"? This signal will also have a shunt signal for movement into the loco shed road. Exit from the loco shed would be controlled by a Stop board and verbal instruction.
    [list] Because the creamery siding connection is now on the run-round (Non-Running Line) loop it no longer needs a Stop board.


Now that I'm looking at a terminus these are all the signals you need.

With this small arrangement there might be a Signalbox/Block Post where Julian has shown it. There is, however, a serious possibility that the Block Instruments and Token Instrument (possibly combined) would be in the station building while the signals and points were controlled/interlocked in a groundframe between the platform end and the level crossing - as at Oakworth on the K&WVR (Jennifer Agutter country). Such a groundframe may or may not have been provided with a shelter. If given a Signalbox the instruments might have been with the frame.

I think I've covered the main issues.

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Julian2011
post 12 Jan 2018, 11:49
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Being a Terminus certainly makes life easier.

Just a note about the signal types I used in the diagram, to say that I would have preferred to use Semaphores, but there are no UK ones in AnyRail [N] and the OO Hornby ones looked ridiculous. I was going to put up a picture to illustrate, but we have moved on and I didn't want to complicate matters.

Kind regards

Julian


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David Pennington
post 12 Jan 2018, 14:47
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And I thought that I had asked a simple question! I will need some time digest all of this.

Many thanks to everyone who contributed. I will try and get back with a plan for me.


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