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> Ground Signals - Please help me to understand their placement, Swapping running lines
Bear 1923
post 4 Mar 2018, 14:00
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You might find it useful to wade through this topic...

https://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index...showtopic=25978

It includes MR/LMS shunt signals and loads of stuff.


Looking back a couple of years this thread might also be useful...

https://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index...c=28872&hl=

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Art Dent
post 4 Mar 2018, 18:44
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Thanks to both John and Bear for their replies.

I've tried to take in all the information given and have now revised the diagram as follows. Please refer to this diagram in future responses - thanks!



In an earlier post I said: Distance "X" to "Y" is much longer than indicated here - diagram has been compressed. Easily fit a decent couple of trains between them end-to-end.

When I wrote the above I didn't mean that I was going to "store" trains on the down line, it was simply to give you an idea of the proximity of "X" and "Y".

The diagram has now been amended as I had a ground signal labelled "R" (retained) and a conventional 4ft semaphore before the right-hand crossing (now relabelled "T").

I have also labelled the points in case ypu have specific comments regarding these and their associated signals.

U & R and the corrected signals at other end would be two-disc

Why? I'm guessing because at "U", a loco setting back (correct terminology?) could either
go through the crossing towards signal "M" (left route = top signal) or straight back along the down line towards signal "W" (right route = bottom signal).

Similarly at ground signal "R", the top signal would be for the crossing (left route) heading towards signal "D" and the bottom signal would be for straight along the up line towards signal "P". Incidentally, would there be a 'Shunt Limit' sign placed at, for example "P"?

Ground signal "N" - upper disc signals entry to crossing (= left route) towards signal "W" and lower disc signals straight along up line towards signal "M" (= right route).

Ground signal "Q" - upper disc signals entry to crossing (= left route) and lower sdisc signals straight along down lone towards signal "T".

Wouldn't there be a 'Shunt Limit' sign somewhere around signal "T"?

How am I doing?

@Bear

In my other ground signalling thread you posed three questions regarding the yellow on white (or yellow on black after around 1963).

1) A distant signal shows you the aspect of the next signal (= advanced warning)

2) A distant signal is found where you can't see the signal it refers to because of distance, obstacles (line a bridge) or a curve in the track

3) Dummies signal slow, short-distance, shunting type movements

However, a website I've looked at says that the white and yellow disc signals were predominantly on the SR and are not to be confused with distant signals but their function is similar to the red arm/red bar shunting signals with the additional feature that they may be passed when 'on' tos shunting movements along a headshunt without further signalling.

Again, how am I doing?

Art


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John Webb
post 4 Mar 2018, 19:44
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Art - the Yellow ground disc signals were more general to BR than the SR, but as the website you found says, they could be passed in the caution (horizontal) position for moving into a headshunt or the like. If the engine/train needed to go onto the main line, they would wait at the disc until it was moved into the clear position after the points had been changed.
A variation, particularly on SR where many ground signals were flood-light on the front face rather than having spectacle glasses and a light behind, were black discs with a yellow bar as the greater contrast made them more easily viewed. But these were much less common than the yellow on white discs.

John
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Art Dent
post 4 Mar 2018, 20:03
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Thanks John.

Any comments on my now updated (and hopefully correct) diagram (repeated below).



As I initially said, I'm not aiming to do this totally as per prototype, but would like some degree of 'corectness' (for any given value of correct).

I must say since starting my two similarly-themed treads yesterday, ground signalling (and to a degree 'traditional' semaphore signalling is now starting to make sense (for any given value of starting).

Someone 18mths - 2yrs ago tried explaining signalling to me and said that one thing to think about would be "what would the driver expect to see?" Being a car driver, I know what signals I expect to see and where to see them. Having NEVER been a locomotive driver, I don't know what I should expect to see, nor where these signals should be placed.

Now, after Bear's very helpful posts (and your input too of course), I think I am beginning to understand what was meant. Bear said in a reply that some of the ground signals on my track plan should be doubled and my first thought was why? Then, having a bit of a think, I believe that I now understand.

What still confuses me however, is when I see something like this:



Ground Signal at Corfe Castle (with Riddles 2-6-4T No.80146 in shot) - April 2017

With only one ground signal (applying to the siding?) shown, I'm guessing that shunting locos would be assumed NOT to proceed along the straight track on the right hand side towards the rear of the semaphore seen in the far distance (or have I got this wrong?). From what I've understood so far, there should be two, vertically stacked disc signals, the top one being for the straight line and the lower for the diverging route onto the siding?

Art


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Bear 1923
post 5 Mar 2018, 20:15
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Art - I fear that I'm not going to be able to work on this for a few days.

You're doing pretty well now.

Shunt Q would more probably be a single disc for the shunt to the Up Line.
However, if it was a two disc with the shunt back toward T you are correct - there would be a Limit of Shunt somewhere. Just where would depend on why the shunt was provided.

Points 1 and 2 qould be #a and #b ends of same [air of points on one lever. Same principle applies to the crossovers.

Given the lengths you seem to be suggesting between x and y you would probably end up with crossover Z being on another Box (close to Z) - or ona groundframe controoled from the box you have shown.

Trains/stock are not normally permitted to be stablled (or left unattended) on Running Lines. However, I take it now that you are simply giving an indication of the length of the track between locations.

==========

Corfe Castle picture... It's a Heriatge Line - they do strange things - not always remotely standard to regular "real railway" practice. At this stage the best thing to do is ignore this picture.

==========

The 3 questions...
1. No! A |Distant does not show the aspect of the next signal. A Distant (Running Signal) when "On" indicates that the related group of Stop Signals (anything from 1 signal to 4 signals - occasionally 5 signals) has at least one Stop Stop Signal showing On/Stop. This should include the first signal to be approached being On at the time the Distant is sighted.
When the Distant is On train crew should regulate the movement of the train so that they will be able to stop dead on the approach to the first Stop Signal of the group. It is possible that by the time the train does approach the group of signals they will all be "Off".
The group of Stop Signals (1 to4/5 signals) form the Station Limits of the Box. Up to the first Stop Signal a movement is usually in the Block Section In Rear of the Station Limits. Beyond the last Stop SIgnal of Station Limits the movement would usually be into the next Block Section. However, there are several possible variations of this. BUT! You didn't want to get into Block Working (at this stage at least).
When the Distant is "Off" it indicates that all the signals of Station Limits are "Off" which gives a clear road through Station Limits from the Block Section In Rear to the Block Section In Advance. Whether or not a movement runs straight through or not is up to the timetable and the train crew.
Interlocking prevents a Distant being cleared to Off except when all of the Stop Signals of the group are already "Off". The other way round - Once the Distant is "Off" the interlocking prevents any of the Stop Signals of the group from being put back "On" until the Distant has been put back "On".

So - A Distant Signal gives an advanced indication of whether a movement needs to prepare to stop dead or it may proceed at appropriate speed for the train. This allows faster running - because trains approaching Stop Signal groups don't have to slow for every group they approach for lack of a Distant Signal.


2. NO!
Distant Signals are as above!
When a Running Signal has sighting issues - as you say "such as a bridge or curve" - the provision of improved sighting is achieved by a Banner Repeater.
A Signal with sighting issues might also be provided with co-acting arms (or heads). These are usually a high and a low (co-acting) arm. They are occasionally a signal placed on the left of the line (normal location) and a co-acting signal placed Wrong Side. In the few pictures I have seen of semaphores arranged in this second way the arms have both been high - at the same height.
WHere there are co-acting arms it does not mean that there will absolutely not be a banner repeater as well - although it would probably be very rare.

3. YES!!! biggrin.gif
Dummies are also placed so that they can be seen close-up by either train crew or people on the ground... Clarify that a bit - sometimes, where the loco is further away from a dummy and will propel past the dummy the dmmy will be sighted by the guard, the fireman or a shunter on the ground in sight of the signal. Occasionally (where there is a curve) it might be necessary for two or three people to be on the ground to relay instruction to the Driver on the loco.
Dummies do not get Banner Repeaters.
Dummies that frequently need repeating along a train for a propelling movement may be provided with repeaters. These are very different from Banner Repeaters. Much smaller for a start. The LMS/LMR in particular used a distinctive pattern - which they also used as a route indicator on various shunt and subsidiary signals. (Maybe someone can supply a picture?)
Your situations do not look like they would need repeaters for the dummies.

======

John has kindly explained the Yellow Dummies for you. biggrin.gif

I have seen both yellow/white and yellow/black dummies scattered all over England and Wales with no apparent logic. Illumination doesn't seem to be a factor.

======

I think that is all for the moment.

Time to make some Zs

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Bear 1923
post 5 Mar 2018, 20:27
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Then again... It was me! I told you to think through signalling in terms of what a Driver (train) would expect to see... As in - not having existing knowledge - but thinking through what a Driver might be looking for as he worked along a line.
So... On a Running Line making a Running Movement (i.e going somehwre) he would be looking first for Running Signals - Stop Signals and Distants - with the approach to a group of Stop Signals being preceded by a Distant Signal - the Distant Signal telling him whether he was about to have to come to a stand before the first Stop Signal or he could expect to run through the group if that was what he expected to do (subject to platform or other stops).

Once stopped in a Station Limits (which wouldn't necessarily have platforms) and wanting to do some shunting (e.g. into a siding) a Driver would look for Non-Running signals (shunts/dummies) to control his movements to run round and/or shunt into a siding. He would often then subsequently look for a shunt signal back out of the siding.

This "looking for signals" is the easiest way to figure out what would be where. As in "where do I need to be told to stop" and "what do I need to be told". Does this make more sense for you?

Q1. Where am I going to need to be told to stop on the Running Line?

Q2. What sort of things am I going to need to be told on the Running Line for Running Movements?

Q3. What sort of things am I going to need to be told for Non-Running Movements?

Z time!

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Bear 1923
post 7 Mar 2018, 12:06
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QUOTE (Art Dent @ 4 Mar 2018, 20:03) *
What still confuses me however, is when I see something like this:



Ground Signal at Corfe Castle (with Riddles 2-6-4T No.80146 in shot) - April 2017

With only one ground signal (applying to the siding?) shown, I'm guessing that shunting locos would be assumed NOT to proceed along the straight track on the right hand side towards the rear of the semaphore seen in the far distance (or have I got this wrong?). From what I've understood so far, there should be two, vertically stacked disc signals, the top one being for the straight line and the lower for the diverging route onto the siding?

Art

You have some correct direction ideas about this picture. biggrin.gif

(There's been a change of plan on when I'm busy or not).

As I commented before this is a heritage railway - and they do some odd things at times.

Let's start with drawing conclusions about what is in the picture...

Working left to right we have a line (line #1) with the loco on which is a straight run into the single line in the distance. Due to the staright-on I would assume that this is a Running Line and not a run-round loop. I would also guess that there is another platform on the left begind the camera.
Just beyond mid distance there is a Running Signal/Stop Signal on the left (cess side) of this line showing an "Off" indication - for movement to proceed beyone the points that provide access to/from the next line to the right. This signal provides protection for the points.

Looking beyond the points we can jsut see the Running Signal/Stop Signal for the opposite direction that protects the points from that direction. This is a single arem on the post - therefore the route is into the left hand route only as seen from the approach side of that signal. This line (line #2) is the middle of the three lines we can see - the next line to the right of the line with the loco on it.
We might call line '1 the departure line and line '2 the arrival line.
However! Line #2 has a Running Signal/Stop Signal to the right of it. This signal is placed Wrong Side. The reason it is Wrong Side is because it is for departure away to the single line in the distance from the platform that is behind the camera. We can tell there is a platform behind the camera because we can see the back fence of the platform ramp to the right of the signal. This line (#2) is signalled for working in both directions - arrival and departure. (There are two possibilities for departing and only one for arriving).
There are four practical reasons this signal is where it is
    1. It protects the points to the siding and at the same time acts as the signal for movement toward the single line. In this second role modern terminology calls it a "start back" signal.
    2. There isn't clearance for it in the 6ft way where the dummy is on the ground.
    3. It is well over to the right and away from line#1 and therefore doesn't create a risk of being mis-read as a signal for that line.
    4. It is where platform staff and a train guard working on the platform can see it easily and clearly when a train is starting to the single line from this platform.

It would be possible for there to be another Running Signal/Stop Signal on line #2 at a wrong side location across the line from the Running Signal/Stop Signal on line #1. However, the signal engineers and traffic department haven't thought that this would be needed. Such a signal would be Wrong side for reasons 2 and 3 above.

That's the Running Lines and Running Signals.

With no start-back signal provided one would expect a shunt signal/dummy for entry into the siding in the 6Foot Way on the left of the track to which it applies (line #2). (Note - that is on the left when looking toward the face before making the shunt move past the signal). So this dummy is in the correct position.
Be aware that this is a Southern - BR/SR - set up so there is only one dummy which would normally be able to signal either route (when there was no start-back signal). Other companies would tend to use a double dummy.
We have the start-back signal though... So the usual thing one might expect would be for the dummy to be at the base of the Running Signal mpost - either in front of it (nearer the platform ramp) or to the right of it (matching the side of the siding to be shunted to). Howevere; if the dummy were at the foot of the post it would be difficult to see it from along the platform. Consequently the signal engineers have put it where it can be seen more easily.

The result does look confusing.

Looking beyond the Stop Signal on the right (start-back signal) to beyond the points into the siding we appear to have a Ten Foot Way between the Running Line and the Siding. (this is what is supposed to be provided where possible whenever a Non-Running Line is next to a Running Line).
In the 10 Foot Way we can see the back of the shunt dummy for signalling movement out of the siding. This signal is on the right of the track to which it applies - and therefore "Wrong Side". The reason for this Wrong Side is that, if placed "correct/normal side" it would be at risk of being clouted by road vehicle traffic working around the siding - also, possibly, of being obscured from sight by materails stacked next to the track.
The wagon on the right suggests that this could be a Yellow Dummy.
One thing that is odd about this signal is that it appears to be closer to the camera than the blades of the points (the far ends of the connection) that is supposed to protect. This is "WRONG"!.
Gieven that this dummy is Wrong Side for the siding and correct/normal side for the Running Line I would also expect it to have been placed closer to the siding rather than (apparently) in the middle of the 10 Foot Way. To me there is a potential risk of this signal being misread by a movement on the Running Line (#2).

Does this explanation clarify what is going on here?

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Art Dent
post 7 Mar 2018, 17:55
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QUOTE (Bear 1923 @ 7 Mar 2018, 12:06) *
Does this explanation clarify what is going on here?

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It is getting clearer by degrees!

Thank you for all of your patience explaining this to a human 'dummy' not signal dummy!

In that light (and as part of my education, I will attempt to answer your earlier questions. You can then assess if I am making progress or not ...

Q1. Where am I going to need to be told to stop on the Running Line?

When approaching an occupied block ahead of me, or when a point is set against me, or the point is set incorrectly for the route.

Q2. What sort of things am I going to need to be told on the Running Line for Running Movements?

I need to be told when to stop (if line blocked, points set against me or route not set correctly) and also when it is clear to proceed.

Q3. What sort of things am I going to need to be told for Non-Running Movements?

That it is clear to move - for example onto a running line or move onto a siding from a running line whether moving forwards or backing on (not sure if I have the correct terminology there).

How am I doing unsure.gif question.gif

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Bear 1923
post 7 Mar 2018, 19:12
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[/color]
QUOTE (Art Dent @ 7 Mar 2018, 17:55) *
It is getting clearer by degrees!

Thank you for all of your patience explaining this to a human 'dummy' not signal dummy!

In that light (and as part of my education, I will attempt to answer your earlier questions. You can then assess if I am making progress or not ...

Q1. Where am I going to need to be told to stop on the Running Line?

[color="#8B0000"] When approaching an occupied block ahead of me, or when a point is set against me, or the point is set incorrectly for the route.

Yes - but there is a much shorter answer to this. (Yes ohmy.gif I am actually advocating a very short answer ohmy.gif ). If you wanted to go for a list there would be a whole bunch of other things to include biggrin.gif

Q2. What sort of things am I going to need to be told on the Running Line for Running Movements?

I need to be told when to stop (if line blocked, points set against me or route not set correctly) and also when it is clear to proceed.

Yes. However, being pedantic, you could add to this (a bit - for both parts of the answer...)


Q3. What sort of things am I going to need to be told for Non-Running Movements?

That it is clear to move - for example onto a running line or move onto a siding from a running line whether moving forwards or backing on (not sure if I have the correct terminology there).


Not quite... As a guide - in what manner would I be moving? Forwards or backwards? I suspect that you are looking at it in terms of the loco movement - you want to look at it in terms of the track. (Locos move/draw forward or set back).
I have just looked back a couple of posts here. So I realise that I will seem to have told you to look at the signalling from the driver's perspective and that I am now (suddenly) telling you to look at it with regard to the track. This is all part of the fun of trying to explain signalling. What is needed is a mixture of both. That is - the Driver's awareness of where he is on track and what sort of track he is on. -- So that would be something along the lines of "I'm on the Running Line approaching such and such mileage at which I should se xxx" OR "I am moving steadily in in a Non-Running Line Refuge Loop ready to stop short of any obstruction...

How am I doing unsure.gif question.gif

Not bad smile.gif You landed yourself with a stroppy "trainer" though. dribble.gif So it would be good if you kept working at it. The things that you figure out for yourself at this stage will stick more thoroughly. (The answers are already in the earlier parts of your two threads - you "just" need to re-read and you will be able to pick them out. smile.gif

Have fun!

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Art
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Bear 1923
post 9 Mar 2018, 11:22
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QUOTE (Art Dent @ 4 Mar 2018, 20:03) *
Thanks John.

Any comments on my now updated (and hopefully correct) diagram (repeated below).



As I initially said, I'm not aiming to do this totally as per prototype, but would like some degree of 'corectness' (for any given value of correct).

Art


Oh POOH!!! mad.gif sad.gif I'm falling apart again ermm.gif Hip messing about... So I'm off work with time to waffle... dribble.gif

Looking at your latest diagram...
Is this something being planned, already part built - or - what?

Something that has started to bug me (while waiting appointmenst etc wacko.gif is the two train lengths "long" distance between Y and X.

My thoughts probably only apply if you are planning at this stage. Either way it's your layout and I note your comment about "correctness".
Howvere, what foolows might either guide you or anyone else wading their way through these notes.

In the following I am assuming that the train arrives on the Down Line and will go back on the Up Line.

So - the thing is thatyou are arranging to run round at either end of the platforms. I suspect that this looks like the "logical" place for it to be done. As in - a train arrives, terminates and is going to work back the other way. This would mean a loco would need to change ends. So - a run round. You might have seen some attaching/detaching of a loco at a platform - potentially on a heritage railway. Looks like fun doesn't it? Now, if you will, imagine doing that 52 weeks a year, for (say) ten trains a day... wacko.gif

As a car driver I wouldn't expect you to have had the opportunity to indulge in this pleasure ( wink.gif ) Before I escaped into a nice warm signalbox I was a shunter. Attaching/detaching in a platform is a pain. You have to get down and in between the platform face and the near buffer and work in a half squat/half bent over position - trying to get as little crud and grease all over you as possible. If you work five days of each week that's 600 jobs in each year - doubled up when you go from terminated train to coupled up and ready to work back. So - now you know why railwaymen like to find the easy way to do things. biggrin.gif

All that waffle sets me up for relocating your run round activity from the platforms between Z and Y to a shunt forward (made on the Running Signal W) {there is no need to add a shunt/"draw ahead" signal for your period with semaphore and AB} - relocating to between Y and X. How can you run-round there? You swipe the crossover from Z and put it next to X. It can go either side ofX. Which side would depend on what length nis wanted between Y and signal D. Making the detachment and attachment here on plain track is a whole lot easier than next to the platform - the fireman or shunter can get in from the cess side.

There is another advantage. For your period a terminated train would not start back in service from the same platform. Before or after running round the train would be worked to the other line and the other platform as non-service shunt movements. Whichever way round the run-around is worked this would involve a propelling movement to get the carriages into the Up platform. The train would subsequentlydepart in service from the Up platform.

Running round between Y and X on the Down Line would mean that the train could be drawn into the p[latform from shunt signal U to Stop Signal M.

It is always a good thing to minimise propelling movements. biggrin.gif

-------

The above is the working logic for arranging the track differently.

There is then a "technical" reason for moving crossover Z to next to X.

As shown in your diagram there would be a long shunt in the Wrong Direction for locos coming out of the MPD to go onto the Up Line. This is not 100% impossible. It would probably be 98% disapproved of by the authorities at the planning stage. (Plans for new track and amendments had to be submitted for approval from the Act of 1889 onwar).
The normal/conventional/most likely track layout would not have crossover Z (unless it related to some other purpose that isn't shown so far) but to have the second crossover at X.
Crossover at X would provide for both getting locos from the MPD to the Up Line immediately with minimal "Wrong Direction shunting and making run-rounds... Run rounds also with minimal Wrong Direction shunts. biggrin.gif

I suspect that you will already be figuring that if we move the crossover then C shunt signal will alter.
Whichever side of X the reloacted crossover is on shunt moves will not stand on a set of points between directions. Shunts will work clear of the crossover/MPD conection toward Stop Signal C and stop on plain track. It will then be signalled to any of the route options from one stack of shunt discs.
I think that you will now be able to figure this out quite quickly as you are getting the hang of what shunt signals go where.

Making this change will lead to a couple of other changes - but we can get to them later.

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Art Dent
post 10 Mar 2018, 11:33
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QUOTE (Bear 1923 @ 9 Mar 2018, 11:22) *
Oh POOH!!! mad.gif sad.gif I'm falling apart again ermm.gif Hip messing about... So I'm off work with time to waffle... dribble.gif

Looking at your latest diagram...
Is this something being planned, already part built - or - what?

Still in the planning stage. I had hoped to be laying track 12 months ago but loft flooring, insulation, ventilation and wiring have taken MUCH longer than anticipated (also some paid work and grandchildren to look after have caused further delays).

Meanwhile, track is being purchased, locos & rolling stock bought and modified, buildings made, etc, etc.

This is why I wanted to look at signalling - so it could be included in the planning rather than added as an afterthought. Anyway ...

QUOTE
Something that has started to bug me (while waiting appointments etc wacko.gif is the two train lengths "long" distance between Y and X.

I looked at my plan and the distance between the end of the platform and the entry to the MPD is 1.5m (actual) - so more like 1 train length.

QUOTE
My thoughts probably only apply if you are planning at this stage. Either way it's your layout and I note your comment about "correctness".
However, what follows might either guide you or anyone else wading their way through these notes.

In the following I am assuming that the train arrives on the Down Line and will go back on the Up Line.

Not really. Most train movements would be through the station on both up and down lines.

I have the luxury of a large, unobstructed loft space - approx 9.25 m long x 2.5 m wide (or 30 ft 4 in x 8 ft 7 in) - however there are numerous obstructions and constraints (such as two substantial brick pillars which support the purlins on either side of the roof, a wooden A-frame support (also supporting a purlin), a loft access hatch and a large cold water tank that have to be negotiated - and the additional directive from SWMBO that "You're not taking over the whole loft!") that limit the track design.

My main idea was to have a twin-track loop that has a 'business end' where most of the action happens and a 13.5 m (44 ft) long and twin track enclosed section at the far end of the loft to facilitate continuous running and a raised fiddle yard. The idea included two stations on opposite sides of the loft at the 'business end' and an end-to end branch line.

Since coming up with the main idea nearly 2 years ago now, I am questioning the overall design - the main problem being that I can't really have a really long station platform without the aforementioned obstructions intruding - particularly the two brick pillars and A-frame support.

Below is a "design" that is nearly 2 years old (before the branch line was added) and the fiddle yard redesigned and I'm still not happy with it. I may even draw up a blank plan of the loft and ask the forum for suggestions as to a decent track plan with a double oval for continuous running, a big main station (with perhaps a bay platform for a branch line and a branch line station), a MPD (which includes a programming track) and as big a fiddle yard as I can manage.

Ideally, I'd use the right-hand end for the 'business end' rather than the left, but when I started the loft conversion nearly 2 years ago with my initial designs in mind, I put a substantial ring main in the left-hand side of the loft as seen in the diagram - there is virtually nothing on the right.



QUOTE
So - the thing is that you are arranging to run round at either end of the platforms. I suspect that this looks like the "logical" place for it to be done. As in - a train arrives, terminates and is going to work back the other way. This would mean a loco would need to change ends. So - a run round. You might have seen some attaching/detaching of a loco at a platform - potentially on a heritage railway. Looks like fun doesn't it? Now, if you will, imagine doing that 52 weeks a year, for (say) ten trains a day... wacko.gif

As a car driver I wouldn't expect you to have had the opportunity to indulge in this pleasure ( wink.gif )

Not yet, first driving 'experience' is in May this year on a local NG line biggrin.gif

Cheers,

Art


--------------------
You are never too old to spend money, learn new things or to play trains!
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Bear 1923
post 10 Mar 2018, 13:06
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biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif Great! Still planning thumbsup.gif
While it is frustrating to be delayed this is the time to sort out all sorts of things - like the arrangement of signals and the reasons behind them.

It would probably be a good idea to start a fresh thread to ask for ideas on the layout arrangement.

It looks suspiciously like Marion's end is outside the roof spce... dribble.gif

Meanwhile - a few items that I notice...

List 1.
    1/1. I'm guessing that the layout is n gauge?
    1/2. If not the storgae area at the left is going to have issues with reaching to the far tracks. Also you won't get much in the outer sidings.
    1/3. The storage is a good idea in principle - the next issue is how you arrange it.
    The turntable end of the storage does not need to have points going to a single lead onto the TT. This could gain you length in the roads and save you on points by at least pairing the roads - maybe getting three together.
    1/4. At the outer end you can start your pointwork as soon as you go off scene and put some points in the curve. It being a right hand curve going in try to arrange the splitting of the lines with no left hand points. Although they are longer curved points can be useful - at least as the initial lead.
    1/5. Having said that - the arrangement of one connection from the storage to the double track would be a disaster. Evereything coming in or going out is stuck with the one track - you would then have to shuffle to get it to the other line. PAIN!!!
    1/6. So a proper double junction would be FAR FAR better.
    1/7. With an on scene double junction go through the scenery and then go to a very short length of single line before starting to split to the storage sidings. This will mean that you can only have one movement entering or departing at a time but will give you maximum access to storage sidings with shortest length of approach
    1/8. So... A Double Junction into a Double track running line.. Great! You now have a nice junction you can play with..
    1/9. You do not need a station/platforms. Lots of interesting railway places are where there are no platforms. In fact, platforms are a distraction.


More shortly...

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Bear 1923
post 10 Mar 2018, 13:22
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My suggestions for how to approach this...
list 2...
    2/1. Instead of running straight to the corners and then making a sharp 90 degree turn I would recommend makingsweeping curves around the ends. YOu might even make the right hand end a semi-circular sweep all the way round with no straight in the middle.
    2/2 Sweeping end curves will give you space on the outside to put features.
    2/3. With a sweeping curve you can put in a crossover using a combination of right hand and left hand point - it takes a bit of juggling but it can be done. Keep in mind that when the real railway wants to fit something in it doesn't stick to rigidly parralel tracks in the way that modellers think they have to.
    2/3 Six Foot and Ten Foot Ways are minimum standards - tracks can ease wide of these. (The 10 foot can ease a little inside sometimes.
    2/4 You can negotiate rolling storgae for SWMBO under the sweeping corners.
    2/5 Esthetically sweeping corners or semicircle will allow your trains to look far more realistic. An inside curve view is frequently better. (The gaps between carriages close up).
    2/6 It's up to you - you can "uncurve" your curves in your head or keep them curved - when figuring out what signals and where. With a left hand curve and a clockwise track some of your signals may bracket out over the centre line for sighting and a few might end up wrong side. Remember to not try to put too much of everything is - you don't want to end up with a forest of signals.
    2/7. My impression is that you are already going for some measure of minimal and wanting to see you trains rolling - with some shuffling about/shunting using you depots. This is fine. The thing is "how to achieve it".
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Bear 1923
post 10 Mar 2018, 13:42
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More3 suggestions...
List 3.I'm going to go "conceptual" for this list...
    3/1 When planning a branch terminus what will be goingt on is pretty obvious - trains arrive from the junction and go back to it. With any through station it helps a lot to create a concept of where it is and what is going on. This doesn't have to be elaborate - but a basic plan helps.
    3/2 For what you are looking at I would suggest that the storage yards become a large town terminal - not as big as Manchester Piccadilly and Mayfield (ggods) but that sort of set up. That way you have reason for all your trains to bear off in that direction and come from it.
    3/3 The circuit then becomes the "main line between bigger towns.
    3/4 With this arrangement the terminus needs loco facilities - and maybe carriage sidings. Theoretical lack of space in the town can push these depots out beyond the junction onto the main line. This makes for lots of interesting movements - when you want them.
    3/4 You might well remove the TT from the storage and put it at the loco depot - train locos (pass) working out from the terminus to turn and service before working back in. This could save you a whole load of points at the TT end of your storage and give you longer sidings (straight).
    3/5 It would be much better to seperate your steam and diesel depots - possibly to opposite sides of the line. YOur present plan would be far too cramped - to the extent of being useless. Both in reality and for your model there would be extremely little that could be done with it.
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Bear 1923
post 10 Mar 2018, 13:55
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Conclusions I draw from these lists...
    A. The main feature is double track running line - where you can see your trains clearly - on the move. Sweeping curves are best for this.
    B. Next feature is the double junction. Use nice long points for this as far as possible. There is lots of potentila for prioritising which train runs foirst at a junction - so - lots of standing and waiting for some trains.
    C. The terminal (goods and pass) stations are going to need loco facilities - so - an older steam shed. This will want good running connections into a reception (headshunt) and back out promptly onto the other line (quite possibly from the same headshunt. You want light loco moves to be able to get out of the way of through trains and terminus trains. (So the inbound route may well be a Facing Connection to the headshunt).
    D. The diesel depot will be a more modern variation of the steam depot - with the same need to get diesels in and out swiftly. Thgis depot might be little more than a fuelling point with a minimum shed - if any.
    E. For seeing your trains run with the option of seeing a bit of shuffling around for a change that is all you need.
    F. The signalling could be pretty simple - and not have a forest.


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