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> Signalling 4'x6' for the children., Relocated material from "help with ground signals"
Bear 1923
post 20 Mar 2018, 19:37
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... Okay, I had been confused ohmy.gif There's a surprise! tongue.gif

So - I have relocated Julian's questions from Art's thread...


QUOTE (Julian2011 @ 18 Mar 2018, 18:02) *
I hope I have been paying sufficient attention to matters aforesaid. I have plans for a small layout with a couple of stations with a place to rest wagons and load Goods. It isn't really large enough for the distances to be anything like realistic, but that is no new matter.

I have applied some of the wisdom, I have read, to one of the stations and it looks to be signally expensive quite crowded, but that has to be rather expected, given the space limits. However, it seems worth looking at what should be there and making the train moves comply with the system.

Anyrail didn't seem to have light signals, apart from the ground ones, so I used their semaphore ones to plot types, lights will be the order of the day. They were also limited to left turnout point doubles, so I had to "Flip" some of them to get right-hand turnouts. I have placed them all on the left side of the track they apply to and the posts point to the approaching loco, red lights on Ground Signals likewise. I used ground signals for as many local moves as possible, otherwise it would begin to look like "Great Birnam wood to high Dunsinane hill Shall come against him" has arrived again!




Hopefully most moves are covered, including reverses to get to the correct up/down lines. Distant signals are place by the lines they attend to, but any as do get planted will be much further away on the other side of scenic interferences.

Kind regards, but not expecting 10/10 for application.

Julian



QUOTE (Bear 1923 @ 19 Mar 2018, 20:14) *
ohmy.gif

While you say that the Running Signals will in fact be colour light signals - I don't have a clue about where you have gone to with this.

Isn't your subject 1960s LMR? Almost without exception that era would be left hand running - with some very limited Reversible Running - which would not usually be the case with a layout similar to this.

The junction should be to the right of the sidings' connection.

Whatever you are up to you appear to have suddenly moved to signalling for bi-directional running - which in most applications didn't come in much until the 1980s at the earliest - except for the lines to Cornwall (in some areas).

Therefore a simple reduction to your forest would be to remove all the signals for the right hand line. Once the forest is thinned out a bit I might be able to determine what you are up to...


With limited length the likelihood of needing any distants (other than possibly slotted distants) is highly unlikely. Also splitting distants were not common except on express routes - and even there they weren't numerous.
cool.gif



QUOTE (Julian2011 @ 20 Mar 2018, 17:34) *
Hi Bear,
Thank you for your reply and I take your comments on board, with interest. I have had another long look at what I put on the plan, in the light of your comments and see that quite a number can be eliminated.

The layout is OO, 4' x 6'4", so rather small, I apologise for being less than clear. It's very much Rule No.1 as one of the intentions is to give my 12 yr old an incling of some basic modelling / engineering skills and some fun of course. As such, I collected a number of locos and running stock which one or more of the family have been on [and in the case of a couple the link has been a little more tenuous, such as the BR Blue Sir Nigel Gresley A4, which was my daughter's first experience of a large Steam Loco - It passed us 10 yards away, pulling out of Dawlish, with a full compliment of coaches. Her jaw just dropped open, as she watched, stunned, followed by "Wow!!" as it thundered into the nearby tunnel. I couldn't resist that one. rolleyes.gif ] With that theme in mind, it is all post 1958, some Spam Cans, Castles, A4s and LMR but most is more recent. Clearly there is a vast time gulf between either end of the idea, so many, planned, contradictions and compromises exist. Where the signals for the layout are concerned, the lights seemed to be the better choice, as much rolling stock is relatively modern plus shorter posts, for when the Boards get stored behind a door. All that being said, I would like the correct processes to happen as closely as might be possible, within the limitations of such small Baseboards.

I had planned on left-hand running, with the exception of moves from / into the Sidings to the outer loop and the single line into the terminal platform. I had, incorrectly, thought that reverse running signals might be needed for none-standard running during repairs etc. I gather that isn't the case from your reply. That certainly makes the forest largely disappear and ground lights would seem to be sufficient for protecting the approach to the various points, sidings, crossover and single slip.



This looks far less cluttered and I'm pretty sure if the shunt-limit signals are not appropriate, as a shunt shouldn't be allowed onto a stretch of line where a train could approach, anyway.

Bear, you are most informative and my thanks go to you for your expertise.

Kind regards

Julian

PS. Apologies for the slow response, I couldn't find the Thread, once it left the Recent Posts folder. rolleyes.gif

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Bear 1923
post 20 Mar 2018, 20:44
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QUOTE (Julian2011 @ 20 Mar 2018, 17:34) *
I had planned on left-hand running, with the exception of moves from / into the Sidings to the outer loop and the single line into the terminal platform. I had, incorrectly, thought that reverse running signals might be needed for none-standard running during repairs etc. I gather that isn't the case from your reply. That certainly makes the forest largely disappear and ground lights would seem to be sufficient for protecting the approach to the various points, sidings, crossover and single slip.



This looks far less cluttered and I'm pretty sure if the shunt-limit signals are not appropriate, as a shunt shouldn't be allowed onto a stretch of line where a train could approach, anyway.


1. I have no idea whether this is laid track or a developing plan? Hopefully the latter.

2. So, as noted the double junction to the single line branch "should" go to the right of the connection to the sidings. This would not normally be a slip in the outer circuit line but a plain set of S&C in both circuit lines with a diamond in the outer circuit for the line from the inner circuit. Now - that diamond might be a single slip configured the other way up - so that is could act as a crossover between the inner and outer circuits. Note - that done like that there is only one Facing Point in the circuit lines while the crossover and connection into the inner circuit line are all Trailing.

3. There might well be another Trailing Crossover somewhere to the left of the platforms. This would allow for run-round movements.

4. There should be a trap point (even if it is only theoretical or a dummy) between the sidings and the Running Lines.

5. The outer platform should not follow the curve of the diverging route. The platform would be set to the left where all of its face paralleled the track - before the points. This avoids people trying to de-train and falling on the track. This occurs anyway if/when a train stops not fully in the platform. People also manage to get out on the non-platform side. huh.gif rolleyes.gif

6. Similarly the inner platform shouldn't curve into the sidings. However, I realise that these details might be a result of the planning programme rather than your intention.

7. Your diagram doesn't show a terminal platform road.

--

8. Actually, thinking of your "extended/non specific time scale"... You might opt to use a modern style "step-over junction" instead of the older double junction. That would put a Trailing Crossover between the platform and the divergence to the single line. So... A movement from the single line would run through a Trailing connection onto the outer circuit and then step across the crossover to the inner circuit. This would be on a MAS (Multiple Aspect (TCB) Signalling Syatem. Points would be motorised (self locking) and the whole thing controlled remotely from an ASCC.

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I can appreciate your daughter's "Wow!". smile.gif Sensible young lady! smile.gif

I can still vividly recall a WR 4-6-0 (Castle???) charging through a West Country curved platform station HOWLING for the road. IIRC I clung to one of the canopy support posts for dear life. That loco probably had sixteen on - so the rush didn't stop with just the loco. "EEEK!!!"
I also have fond memories of Class 47 screaming down Deer Leap Bank with extended blasts of each tone demanding the Outer Distant for Gomshall Lane Crossing - on Gatwick Manchester diversions. That would wake the whole village up biggrin.gif

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Meanwhile - back at your possible signals.

You appear to be mistaking the use of Running Signals (Big/tall Colour Light Signals) with Ground Signals (Little short Non-Running Signals). The jobs are distinct.
Running Signals must be seen by train crew approaching at speed - they must therefore be seen at an adequate distance. Non-Running Signals must not be confused with Running Signals and need only be seen at low speed over short distance.

S1. Identify which are your Running Lines.
S2. Identify which are you Non-Running Lines.
S3. Your RIGHT DIRECTION Running Lines need protecting Running Signals (Multiple {3} Aspect Stop Signals in your case) to protect anything you don't want Running Movements to bump into - like a train in front or a set of points in the wrong position for the movement.
S4. Any Wrong Direction movements on the Running Lines get signalled with Shunt Signals. (Probably Position Light Ground Signals in your case). This basically applies to movements over Trailing Crossovers and setting back into the sidings. (APLGS would not usually have two heads to distinguish between setting back over a crossover or into a siding {where the two route options were signalled from one location} but would have one PLGS with a small route indication (Mini theatre light).
S5. I'm not dealing with your ghost terminal road here.
S6. Non-Running Movement from the sidings would be a PLGS.
S7. You do not appear to have any Limit of Shunt need at present.
S8. Signals cost money. Therefore you do not provide signals for anything which might only happen occasionally at random. This need is covered by hand signalmen and verbal instructions.

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"a shunt shouldn't be allowed onto a stretch of line where a train could approach"

You have a misconception.

Take an average, any time, double track station (or passing place on a single line)... A goods train arrives with some wagons to be shunted into a siding. Where's it going to stop?
So... When it stops - often between platforms - on the Running Line to make the shunt to the siding - possibly including a shunt/run round - it is inevitably going to be stopped and to shunt on the Running Line - where another train might approach.
Consequently - this is where old-style signalboxes that were Block Posts in Absolute Block Signalling were placed. These Block Signalboxes controlled the connections to the sidings and the crossovers AND they controlled the immediate Stop Signals (Running Signals) of their Station Limits - AND the Block Sections on each side. The Absolute Block Boxes did all this so that trains could safely stop and shunt on the Running Lines. Also - subject to the Regulations and Rules other trains could safely approach under control so that they would stop short of the shunting activity at a protecting Stop Signal/Running Signal.
This protection of station activity is why any Block Signalbox's Station Limits Stop Signals were always protected by a Distant Signal. If/when any shunting were happening (or anything just standing on the Running Line) the Distant Signal at "On"/Caution would instruct an approaching train crew to slow down so that they could stop dead short of the first Stop Signal (Running Signal). In this way both the activity in the station and the approaching train were protected from each other.
In the alternate case, where nothing was standing in the Station Limits and no shunting was occurring the Signalman could get a "Line Clear" from the Block Signalbox In Advance, clear all his own Stop Signals for the direction and then clear the Distant - this would tell an approaching crew that they were free to roll through if they wanted to.

Colour Light / MAS signalling is based on the same principles.

-------

So... You now want a few Running/Stop Signals and a few PLGS. Bearing in mind that if you go to a step-over junction the signals both protecting it and instructing route could be set quite some distance back from the junction on all sides in order to conform to modern concepts of overlap protection. this could push all the colour light signals out off of your small layout. This would, however, solve the problem of storing a layout with signals against/behind a door.

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Bear 1923
post 22 Mar 2018, 15:26
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QUOTE (John Webb @ 22 Mar 2018, 09:38) *
"The Big Weekend" - extended opening 10am-5pm at St Albans South Signal Box
Sat 24th and Sunday 25th March


Conclusion of English Tourism Week - live steam passenger haulage - extended displays - light refreshments - sales etc.

FREE ENTRY - special award for our 20,000th visitor since public opening started in October 2008
will you be our lucky winner?

John Webb

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Julian2011
post 22 Mar 2018, 16:05
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Hi Bear,
Thanks for relocating this part of the other thread, it was, unintentionally beginning to get larger than I had intended and I love the title, very funny.

I owe you an appology, for giving you a misconception about my meaning, referring to the end of shunt ground signals. When I made my comment I was acknowledging the existence of the Block System and assumed that the Block would have to be clear, before any shunting. I should have mentioned the Block System in my comment, with the assumption, I'm sorry about that, it involved you in quite a lengthy explanation, which I could have prevented, with better chosen words.

I have a busy day and will have to get back again, thank you again for you help.

Kind regards

Julian


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Bear 1923
post 22 Mar 2018, 21:44
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No problem smile.gif
In fact you helped me to think things through in a different way. A bit hard to describe this - but - I generally know the information from one perspective - or (at best) a very few perspectives. Other people's perspectives, especially misconceptions, are most useful in informing me. This then helps me to come up with answers/explanations I might not otherwise have achieved.
An example of this that has emerged a couple of times is the idea that a shunt signal will face the normal direction of travel and effectively authorise a move past it before a wiggle back into a siding - kind of a "parallel parking" movement. Discovering this issue has taught me to be sure to explain which way round shunt signals go.

Glad you liked the title. biggrin.gif
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Julian2011
post 23 Mar 2018, 16:52
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I suppose it might be good to put the section into perspective, relative to the space available. As it stands the plan looks like this, with the section at the top ...

It is way too small [squares @ 12"] for applying any sensible distances for Outer signals, but the scenic breaks help to cover up that inadequacy.

Going back to the picture of the section, which is where we started, it occurs that the inner loop would need a home signal somewhere to the right of the station approach, as an end to that block, which would also protect the approach to those points in the station. I gather any signals round those points would then be ground signals.



Looking at what you wrote, it might yet look something along these lines ...



The pattern for the top station siding[s] now follows the original patttern as was into the DMU platform, on the lower run-through station, but sadly uses another curved set of points. [Umm...] The pattern for the S&C, with diamond and single slip, allows trains from the longest platform to use the diamond directly to cross, from the single line, onto the correct running direction on the inner loop and for trains on the outer loop to slip, directly, onto the single line to the long station, or continue along the outer loop. The black numbers are placed on the 5 boards, which leaves a hole in the middle, but it hasn't brought about much by the way of problems.

Kind regards

Julian

PS. The platforms are only loosly placed, on the second plan, at the moment, to give some idea of what could be located and where [ish]. Board edges are in Teal on the first picture and red on the second.


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Bear 1923
post 25 Mar 2018, 06:41
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Apologies for delay in responding.

I'm still a bit bemused by what you're doing.

I suspect that the main thing is that you are trying to crowd so much on to so small an area. It is of course your layout.

So, dealing with only signalling ideas - and taking the top layout as the working example.

As I see it -
The top half of the layout (which is where we began) you have one clockwise route which splits into two routes (one circuit and one dead end). This would need to be protected by a Stop Signal - either a pair of Semaphore signals (probably as a bracket signal with the route to the dead end on a shorter doll than the circuit route)) or a Colour Light Signal with "feathers"/lunar lights at the #1 position (approximately 11 o'clock) to signal the route to the left.
You also have an anti clockwise circuit route. This would need a single stop signal semaphore or colour light to protect the connections. As colour light and also with your very limited length you would only want one signal to protect all of the Trailing connections into the circuit.
Then you have the anti clockwise movement from the dead end. This needs the same protection for the Trailing connects that the anti-clockwise circuit needs. As the minor line the arm r signal head would be lower than that on the circuit. (Other way round - the circuit signal would be higher than the dead end signal).

So - so far you only need three signals in this part of the layout.

For shunt signals you might be looking at -
1. clockwise circuit - a shunt (setting back) across to the anti-clockwise circuit (if you have a crossover facility).
2. anti clockwise circuit - a shunt (setting back) across to the clockwise circuit (if you have a crossover facility).
3. anti-clockwise circuit a shunt into the sidings.
4. a shunt from the sidings.

1 and 4 would be single dummy signals or position light ground signals (PLGS)
2 and 3 would be a stack of two dummies (top disc signals to the left - bottom to the right) - ( with a small route indication).

So - you get 3 or 4 signals in 3 positions.

I hope this is clear.

(Check out the internet links in the signalling info thread).

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Bear 1923
post 25 Mar 2018, 06:46
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As to how much layout to squeeze in...
1. If the children are to see trains moving (whizzing around biggrin.gif ) you want to avoid hiding them (the trains) behind buildings - including platforms.
2. You also want to avoid the trains constantly rattling over points. As far as practical group you points close together on one side so that you get one collection of clatter. The exception to this would be if you had a second crossover so that you can run-round - but that's not a big issue.

In a tiny space focus on seeing the trains rather than stuffing in as much track as possible.

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Julian2011
post 25 Mar 2018, 14:26
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What a great summary, Bear! That really makes things very clear. [I agree about trying to get too much on a small space, too, although, the eventual outcome may well simplify once track is finally planned.]

I was aware of how the Block System worked, since the LMR Rly Operating Course, in 62 [19 not 18 biggrin.gif ] - but and that's a big but - the course was a basic introduction to how to operate "existing systems", which army personnel may encounter when posted/fighting around the world and of course the UK. What wasn't covered was how and why they had been placed where they were, hence my, unnecessary Forest of Signals, whilst attempting to cover every possible movement in every possible direction. It was a real slap-forehead moment when you pointed out that signals would be placed for "normal" operations and not for every possible movement which might occur and perhaps I should have caught on earlier. After your comments, I thought of driving on the roads, where a similar, but more basic, principle applies to signs and road markings - Duh!

I can now go round the plan, in slow time and look to placement plans for the signals.

Did you get to the St Albans viewing? That would have been very interesting and certainly no small achievement. I had a useful visit to Alexandra Palace where it was good to meet with David Todd and Richard Johnson again. Richard had a small display, on which several of his products could be seen working. He was able to go directly to a simple solution to operating the points Mimic with one of his Alpha boards, which will have spare capacity for signals and maybe a set of crossing gates, [??] too. [I heard that WHAAAT!!!! from here. biggrin.gif ]

Please accept my very grateful thanks for your considered, knowlegable replies, you have made it so much clearer and thereby easier. All I have to do now is think twice before placing any signal on the plan. rolleyes.gif

Kind regards

Julian


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