16v DC bus

Thank you David, much appreciated. Yes, it is my intention to provide a separate designated power supply to the power input of Switch PIlot decoders, but of course - the track input/decoder signal must also be connected - not as supply, but for ECoS DCC control. Further, the decoder CPU input will be supplied from this separate 16v DC bus....for supply to the point motor solenoids, but I need to reduce voltage further to around 12v DC.... for decoder CPU voltage... there are three input/output pairs of terminals in Switch Pilot - track bus (for ECoS), decoder CPU supply and point motor supply. As I understand it, track bus and point motor supply can be bridged .. but I will not employ this... and connect an independent DC bus of around the 16v.
Although very in depth, the ESU manual has created confusion for me - of course, the manual has to provide for all practical applications, and lost me a few times within some of the varying options....

From what I have read - this is practical.... and will serve my layout well, regardless of how many switch decoders I add. Supply to point motors from a separate 16v bus may however exceed the overload protection of Switch Pilot, and I understand that CV's can be changed for this protection to be raised to a higher demand.... I do very much hope that this does not simply remove protection altogether - I doubt ESU would ever make this possible.

Another option which I am currently considering, which should fully protect any threat to Switch PIlot - is to include small relays at the points... a little cumbersome, but by fitting a small relay capable of the 16v DC at 2 or 3 A. for each solenoid, and connected directly to the 16V DC bus I propose - would result in only the current draw of these relays on the outputs of switch pilot.
We spend an enormous amount of money on ESU (and other brands) products, yet for some strange reason - seem to whince at the prospect of a very minute amount of cash for inclusion of componentry which will prolong the life of it.
I'm not sure my plan for incorporating these relays would prove effective, I don't yet know how Switch Pilot would work in conjunction with them being in series between switch pilot outputs and the point motors... but at present, can't understand why not....
Further, I suspect it possible (not mapped out yet) that each relay can also switch contact of the frog..... it's all a bit foggy at present, and I believe it won't be until I actually begin wiring up my layout, and finally power up ECoS and the associated ESU devices that I will begin to learn what will work, and what doesn't...

Again, David - thank you kindly for your reply - being new to DCC and drawn into it from the dark age technology of DC and its simplicity of just two wires.... I am very much on a vertical learning curve, and it is both comforting and reassuring to appreciate that there are folk at hand on this forum to assist and advise... thank you.

frats,
Rosco

Thank you, Julian - I read through your reply a number of times and now understand that I have created confusion in my original post...
Yes, it is my intention to make use of the two servo sockets of ESU Switch Pilot to control operation of the four sets of points in my Shinohara double crossover.
Of course, a "pair" of points must work together - and there are two such "pairs" in this crossover.
With the use of a servo "Y" lead, I can pair the two servo's together to control both sets of points using the one servo socket of Switch Pilot, and thus - the two sockets of the unit will in fact operate the four servo's needed for this cross-over..... hope that makes sense?

With regard to the servo arms - my intention is to create the rods to operate each set of points in this cross-over - to each needed length.....
I also believe i have option to employ a thin rod working on a fulcrum within the servo mount - which will provide tension against retaining the point blade in position... yet prevent any excessive load or failure to close the point gap at each end when just one output from Switch Piilot is utilised for two servo's....
I have seen this posted on line, in vid format - and quite like the concept of using tension within the rod itself to hold the point blades in contact with the stock rail.

As for frog power switching - my intention is not to incorporate any form of manufacturer componentry, but simply by adding one additional rod to one of the two servo's arms (only need one for each of the two paired sets of points) and this can be mechanically set to open and close a micro-switch.... allowing the nc/no contacts to throw power supply to the frog and eliminate shorting as metal (all my rolling stock have metal wheels) wheels cross the frog...

As for preventing issues with the heel supply, I have fitted insulated track joiners to all "frog" ends of my turnouts... supply to all sets of points comes in from the single "common" end (not sure what the correct term is)... from what i understand, this will prevent issues with supply to the points coming in from both ends of the points, creating potential shorting issues as the wheels leave one supply end and enter/connect the other.
All of my track sections beyond the frog end have their own jumper from a sub-bus... and, of course - the sub-bus is connected to the main DCC bus...

I'm totally new to DCC, and thank you very kindly for your reply, aplogies if I created confusion with my original post... and apologise for what my be even more so with the above.....

much appreciated,

frats,
Rosco

Thanks for the clarity on the use of the Switchpilot.

You may be interested in a couple of ideas for controlling the pressure along the rod to the switch-points. Both are simple and very cheap. The coil, compression, springs are just purchased online [a couple of dollars] and very cheap for packs of 20 / 40 / 100 etc. I got several lengths, so as to be able to experiment, the ones in the picture are 9mm long, but I have some at 3mm and also 4mm. [NB. They also come in OO wagon, 3-link, coupling packs, which gave me the idea in the first place, but prices caused me to look online, where there are simply loads available.]

These are over the board, for use under platforms, but operate equally well under the board.


The crossover, both from the one servo.


Coil springs do the same job, but occupy much less space. The connectors are readily available in model a/c or boat shops. I left the pins on the alloy connectors, for illustration, they are now gone.


The pictures are from a mock-up trial, to see how practical it might be.
Julian

The ESU Switch Pilot servo allows you to set the end points for the servo so you don't have to do anything special with the actuating arms. For one Switch Pilot servo driving two servos off the same drive you will of course have to ensure that the mechanical linkages match.

I mount my servos under the baseboard with the operating rod run along the rotor arm like this:

Thank you Julian and David - this is exactly what I wanted to learn.. very much appreciated.
I have much to consider now, and plenty of options to install servo operated points that will not cause the servos to struggle with both load or specific end point adjustments in unison.

I have employed the coil spring arrangement on internal combustion (IC) model aircraft engine throttle control (cable) and it works very well. It would lend itself adequately with point blade control.
I had not considered the wire spring method (in fact, was not aware of it) - but with your pix, I now firmly believe it the most appropriate for controlling two sets of point blades from the one servo. Further, i believe adjustment to "centre" the positioning of both points in unison to be quite easy - simply adjustment by moving the common linkage rod at the servo arm connection ... infinitely variable using the screw as a clamp on the control rod - this has been a most wonderful suggestion, thank you Julian.

David, yes - fully appreciate that both sets of point blades must be set equally, not only in the set position - but also with equal fulcrums and travels etc, or we end up with a "ratio"...
I do like Julian's method of the control wire with control of end point under tension/compression from the wire spring arrangment near the point throw arm... I will conceal all of this beneath my base board. Use of two identical servo control arms remotley at right angles and adjacent to the points is a most suitable arrangement... and should be almost maintenance/trouble free.

I will also include a further control arm to mechanically operate a micro-switch - NC/NO for supplying power to the frog of each pair of points in the Shinohara double crossover.
I have yet to fully contemplate the modification of the earlier version I have (original).. expecting this to be a considerable project... but highly achiveable with my modeling skills from a life time in modeling.. with much scratch building in many facets of the hobbies associated.

Thank you both kindly for your suggestions - they have opened ideas which I had not considered.

frats,
Rosco

Good afternoon Everyone Interesting posts Rosco you might want to put some Bus Spike protection at the end of the Bus i attatch a pic from Dcc Concepts of the article.
Babs

Thanks Babs,
I had not heard of these previously - no idea why they should be considered. My Bus is relatively short, length of the shelf layout along one wall of an unused bedroom is 3.5m....
I will be using ECoS and associated ESU componentry for the entire layout, including loco decoders.

The ECoS Bus will only be used for track. I am adding two additional Bus's, one at 16v DC and one at 12V DC.
The 12v Bus will supply power to the control input of SwitchPilot units.
The 16v Bus will supply power to relays at each set of points - controlled by Switch Pilot, and also to KayDee electric uncouplers.

The two "accessory" Bus's are supplied by a 19v 3.42A "computer" power supply - two adjustable DC-DC Buck units receive power from the P/S.. and control voltage output to my chosen 16v and 12v Bus's respecively.

I have broken up feed from ECoS to the track layout into many isolated "blocks" - not for signalling or running purposes at this stage, but to enable separation from the frog end of all sets of points....
I may consider the fitting of a 12v globe between the ECoS Bus and each sub-Bus...

Hope that explains how I intend to power the layout.

As for the inclusion of the suggested Bus Spike protection - I would appreciate a little more information, particularly in relation to the relatively small and "ended" arrangement of my shelf layout.

Thanks again, much appreciated...

frats,
Rosco

Just adding a little more to this thread - Shinohara double crossover.....
I have decided to purchase ESU "Servo" Switch Pilot and the "Extension".
This unit will enable me to fit 4 servo's to the crossover, if I have issues with the above suggested "joined" pushrod method to control 2 sets of points in unison. It is my intention to attempt this first, but if I am unsuccessful - I will opt to fit the additional 2 servos and have all four sets of points dedicated to a single servo each.... the "extension" will allow me to control power to the frogs... as I understand it.

With the remaining Peco Insulfrog points, my intention is to fit a standard automotive 12v relay to each coil of the point motor solenoids.... assuring me that the higher amperage demand of these point motors does not require me to alter CV settings in the Switch Pilot units and remove overload protection... I have purchased quite a number of these relays at a very low cost.... I searched for micro-relays which would afford a less cumbersome appearance and layout beneath the base board - but the price of such is far greater than the humble automotive variant...

The output from Switch Pilot units will only be drawn by the coils of these auto relays - power to the point motor solenoids comes from a dedicated 16v Bus.... hope that explains my intentions.

I have a separate 12v DC bus which will supply power to the input side of Switch Pilot.... which may be a little overkill - I intend to keep my supply and "track" as separate...
The 12v DC bus will also afford me option to add additional components at a later stage, and will not draw on the ECoS supply through the track.....

frats,
Rosco

I just noticed your mention of the one servo to control 2 x points at a time on the crossover, ie single control rod to two servos. I'm not sure if I mentioned any detail about the spare servo arms, used as ball cranks and throw reduction arms. The picture shows how I made sure that when one set of points is pulled, the other set is pushed. I simply made use of the small arm on opposite sides of the cranks.


For axles for the crank servo arms, most of the spare servo arms [around this size] have 3mm screw holes, there are a few with 2.5mm screw holes, but I have a 3mm drill bit and use the same bolts.

Some ideas and principles are pictured below, too.



Obviously the PL-15 connector rods won't be needed, as you intend using Peco electronic frog polarity switching.
On the topic of the Smartfrog, I don't think that using one servo for two turnouts can done, if using the Peco Smartfrog, as each of the two frogs pairs will need opposite polarity.
It could, however, easily be done using Train Tech RL1 Relay controllers.
Relay Controller

Relay controls could be either from the same Smartswitch output ports, top of Page 3, or [easier] giving each RL1 the same DCC address as each Servo you are using, lower Page 3.
Instructions

Julian

Thank you Julian for your very detailed description and for the effort you have given my questions. I understand how you have employed a bell-crank to control opposing direction from the central drive of the servo.
I further understand how you have effected ratio throw to maximise servo arm travel and minimise point rod throw...
I will make excellent use of the information you have posted.
Further, I have read through your suggested links and have a better understanding of how relay control and block working can be effected.... these are now matters for consideration.
Sadly, I do not believe my ESU loco decoders have the "diode" braking system incorporated, but I may very well be incorrect in this... I have not sat down and learned the full potential of my decoders. Further, I have not fitted one into any of my loco's as yet....... nor have I connected up any of my ESU components nor turned them on.

I made the decision to stay within the ESU range for componentry - in the belief that it will all lend itself compatible and auto-detect in most cases...

For now, I am in the midst of laying track and working through installing point motors and wiring... My main DCC bus is fitted, along with leads to a sub-Bus and jumper further leads from soldered joints at the rail to each sub-Bus.... this is keeping me very busy at present, but - I am attempting as best I can to ensure my work does not require dismantling to effect what you have kindly posted....

I have had to pull up much of what I had previously laid - not being aware that track laying is not simply a "lay and fix" procedure, but is very much post providing for inclusion of point motors, linkages and electric uncouplers etc. etc.... one step back for each two steps forward, so to speak... but, it eventuates in that "one" step forward....

Much appreciated,

frats,
Rosco

Thanks yet once again, Julian.
Yes, Peco Insulfrog points - n/s track joiner at the common end, insulated at both frog ends.
Power supplied from the common end track feed.

This is both the first "shelf" layout and also "HO" layout I have laid...
Previously (30 years back) I laid down a Peco streamline N scale layout on a standard internal house door....
I mapped out the layout using grey lead then began the process of folling my lines laying track down on cork underlay with track pins.... Peco insulfrog points were used with solenoid point motors. It was (of course) a DC track, I constructed both the CDU for the points and a "knock off" EDA control unit.
I created a track "mimic diagram" with push buttons arranged where points were located.. white and black buttons..... and to run Kato and Atlas loco's around the track with all the rolling stock I had to make up trains was quite easy... even for my kids...
It was simply a matter of following the mimic diagram painted on a ply plate.... and to press the points buttons for the intended route.....

When I came to this shelf layout - I had no idea what I wanted.. other than a main line to give opportunity for loco's that i have both scratch built and also constructed from brass/white metal kits... opportunity to at last get some decent length of track to run on... other than previously one length of flexi track...

I have amassed quite an amount of track (4 boxes of flexi track) and a large number of these insulfrog points...





I have no idea how many of these I will end up using... I am struggling to find use for the "curved" sets and believe they will stay in storage... or swapped out with someone who has straight sets who need curved.
I also have a number of Shinohara (original code 100) including this double crossover which I will add as a central focal point in the layout and a double slip - although I am struggling to believe I'll use that.
There are three sets of other S'hara points - one long curved, and two straight....

I have intention of creating a small shunting yard "ladder" with a run-around track....
Also, at the southern end from a platform track - a pair of servicing roads.. one for steam and one diesel.
I have two sets of Y turnouts for those...

Most of this is still in my head, Julian - I have laid down three parallel lines with points at both ends...
The "northern" end teminates behind the entry door to the room... the shelf has been tapered to the width of the narrow end space behind the door... and closing of the door has been limited to allow the width of a locomotive/wagon/carriage to be able to run up to some buffers..... this part of it has all be done...

I'm working from that end back.... placing points loosely down and adding more rail...
I had laid down all three parallel lines with track pins - then pulled it all up again when I was persuaded to do so using flexible gap filler instead of track pins.. which I was in the process of almost completing... when it came to realisation that it had to come up yet again to create holes for the point motors and electric uncouplers....

So, I believe you can appreciate Julian - I am hesitant now to lay any more down - for fear of it yet once again having to come up...

As such, I have now focussed my labour on modifying the double crossover for DCC... and contemplating wiring of the layout...

My main track bus is laid... which I have posted on in a previous reply.

I am about to lay both a 16v DC and also 12v DC bus.... but await arrival of some connection blocks purchased on line....

A number of other components have arrived.. those being adjustable timer relays for uncouplers and DC-DC buck regulators.... along with a 19v 3.42A power supply....

I have also amassed a considerable number of ESU components... ECoS, LokProgrammer, LokTester, SwitchPilot (3), Servo and Extension...

Then we come to the loco decoders.... I have three LokPilot for some scratch built loco's, and three LokSound decoders for an equal number of brass/white metal kit loco's constructed 40 years back...
I have a number of brass/white metal diesel loco kits to construct.... and also one large brass/white metal steam loco kit.... all amassed many years back. I have another brass/white metal steam loco kit on order, but it is not yet in production.. I expect this kit to arrive 3 months hence....

Always a modeller, since a very early childhood - but, my field is spread across many differing subjects... from r/c and control line aircraft, through slot cars and model railways.... throw into the mix my passion for three classic motor cars, fireman on a steam railway, fly fishing, a power boat and caravan (which takes care of three or four months of winter each year)... and my retirement is simply melting away in front of me... now some 12 years...

I feel as if I've thrown myself into the deep end with this shelf layout - so much to do, and no logical pathway through it for precedence...

I believe once I have my track plan worked out... I can proceed, and my questions all relate to encouraging reply as to method - in particular what takes precedence in some logical pathway.....

Thank you very much again for your very much appreciated reply, Julian... it is comforting to understand that I have such good folk who are willing to offer suggestion and advice....

Ross

Bump..... ok, I've run into trouble - didn't take long.
I have tried and tried to read through both ECoS manual and Switch Pilot Servo and have come to a brick wall attempting to get both to work in unison.
I'll try to explain what I have attempted, then post what the outcomes have been thus far.
I don't know if any forum member here has had success with using Switch Pilot Servo (8 outputs) and ECoS 2?

I am attempting to connect up four servo's to a modified Shinohara double cross-over - the frogs have been electrically isolated and jumper leads fitted to enable supply power from Switch Pilot Extension piggy backed to Switch Pilot Servo....

At first, I attempted to program the decoder using Lokprogrammer and my PC laptop - I could not get Lokprogrammer to read the decoder.

Next, I went to set up servo control via the switch pilot servo buttons themselves... and was able to eventually set end points and travel speed for the first four servo's...
I am using track bus power of some 16.5v - with jumpers between the track and power terminals.

Adding an additional two servo's for sets of points beyond the double crossover was also done satisfactorily..
I have (and continue to have) all six servo's working perfectly from the decoder itself....

Following the instructions - I managed to get servo #1 added into ECoS and added a single left point icon to the layout page.... the servo worked perfectly from ECoS.
It took me a while, but I learned that programming with ECoS demanded the address to be changed to 1,2 so that I could get the second servo working..
Following that, the next servo worked with 1,3 and the fourth 1,4.....
Having got that far, I was shocked to find that servo #1 no longer responded.. I had changed nothing as the other three were added.... yet, it continued to work from the decoder itself..... I am finding this very frustrating.
I deleted the first servo from ECoS and re-entered it... still not working, but ok from decoder..... ECoS will now not operate this servo.. and I don't know why.

I added another servo to ECoS at address 2,1 and it refused to operate.... yet ok at the decoder.

I added the sixth servo to ECoS at address 2,2 and it works perfectly....

I simply don't get what I am either doing wrong, or not doing....

I hope someone can explain and advise what is going on between ECoS and Switch Pilot Servo.. I will not add Extension to Switch Pilot Servo until I have all four sets of points of the double crossover working as they should.... three of the four are fine, but the first one does not now function from ECoS.. yet it does from Switch Pilot Servo?.... smoke and mirrors to me...

Can someone kindly enlighten me if I need to somehow get ECoS to "learn" Switch Pilot Servo... to me, there is something in there that simply isn't set up correctly.... Switch Pilot Servo and the servo's all working fine - but not from ECoS..... two of the servo's at #1 and #5 do not respond to changing point direction at all......

Any help/suggestions greatly appreciated...

frats,
Rosco