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I was going thru Trix online shop that Goedel posted.

As usual, the first thing I checked was the Br44.

It has a 21 pin socket !

Can anyone pls explain to me, in laymans terms, what this is.

I am still dwelling how to go on abt with FLM 6 pole sockets, but 21 !?.

thanks

Baykal
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Piotr,

Nice to read the "minutes of meeting".

Seems like next NMRA meeting going to be held in York, Sept. 2007 UK, hosted by Bachmann.


cheers
Baykal
 

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21 pin decoders have been adopted by several European manufacturers and Bachmann. They seem to be in short supply though as I have had to wait three months for one. It is debatable whether they will become the standard as it seems a few companies are holding out and sticking with 8 pins.
 

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QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 19 Jul 2007, 23:22) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>21 pin decoders have been adopted by several European manufacturers and Bachmann. They seem to be in short supply though as I have had to wait three months for one. It is debatable whether they will become the standard as it seems a few companies are holding out and sticking with 8 pins.
More companies are introducing 21 pin decoders over the next few months.

The Lenz Silver 21 pin is due out by the end of July. Gold and Standard to follow at some stage.
Zimo have introduced 21 pin versions too, with another new product due soon.
Bachmann have a 21 pin decoder coming later this year.

By contrast, US companies are pushing for a 22 pin decoder.
8 pins sockets and decoders will still remain as NMRA standards, but as DCC grows to encompass more functions, the 21/22 pin arrangement becomes more desirable.
 

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QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 23 Jul 2007, 00:27) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>What is the point in that? If people start introducing new pin standards willy nilly then there will be no standard. Either 8 pin or 21 pin, one or the other, but lets stop there.
There has been a requirement for a new socket with more pins/connections for some time.
European manufacturers have gone with the 21 pin design and started to deploy it fairly quickly.
US manufacturers have independently identified a need for the extra pin.
Both submissions have been with the NMRA for a long time and no doubt that's why a decision on formal adoption has been delayed. It looks like we'll get both approved? (politics??)
If they had agreed on either the 21 or 22 pin sockets, it would have been adopted and out there much earlier.

It's not the first time manufacturers have run ahead of the NMRA or gone their own way.
Example: Digitrax went their own way on Transponding. Although the NMRA S&RP's didn't cover this aspect, they will do once Bi-Directional coms has been worked through the process. Digitrax couldn't/wouldn't wait and went off on their own. Transponding has been out for years and Railcom is still at the starting gate.
 

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QUOTE (Oakydoke @ 24 Jul 2007, 21:02) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There has been a requirement for a new socket with more pins/connections for some time.
European manufacturers have gone with the 21 pin design and started to deploy it fairly quickly.
US manufacturers have independently identified a need for the extra pin.
Both submissions have been with the NMRA for a long time and no doubt that's why a decision on formal adoption has been delayed. It looks like we'll get both approved? (politics??)
If they had agreed on either the 21 or 22 pin sockets, it would have been adopted and out there much earlier.

It's not the first time manufacturers have run ahead of the NMRA or gone their own way.
Example: Digitrax went their own way on Transponding. Although the NMRA S&RP's didn't cover this aspect, they will do once Bi-Directional coms has been worked through the process. Digitrax couldn't/wouldn't wait and went off on their own. Transponding has been out for years and Railcom is still at the starting gate.
It's the extra pin that gets me. 21 pin has been around for a year or so where as this 22 pin idea seems to have arisen in the last couple of months. If a 21 pin was in existence already what justifies complicating matters by adding just one more pin? Could this mark yet another split in the world of model rail?
 

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QUOTE It's the extra pin that gets me. 21 pin has been around for a year or so where as this 22 pin idea seems to have arisen in the last couple of months. If a 21 pin was in existence already what justifies complicating matters by adding just one more pin? Could this mark yet another split in the world of model rail?

I first learned about the 22 pin layout last month during a visit to the Zimo site. At first sight it does appear to be a daft idea /but/ when you look at the pin layout you see that the inner most 8 pins have the same layout as the current 8 pin standard. Now whether or not this will turn out to be feasible in practice remains to be seen but it does show some sign that some kind of backward compatibility is being considered.

David
 

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QUOTE (dwb @ 3 Aug 2007, 19:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I first learned about the 22 pin layout last month during a visit to the Zimo site. At first sight it does appear to be a daft idea /but/ when you look at the pin layout you see that the inner most 8 pins have the same layout as the current 8 pin standard. Now whether or not this will turn out to be feasible in practice remains to be seen but it does show some sign that some kind of backward compatibility is being considered.

David

Hi David - not having looked at the Zimo site does that mean that you could use just the 8-pins if you had a standard 8-pin decoder that was sufficient for you needs then ?

If so, then to me that would seem a good idea (within space contrainst's).
 

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QUOTE Hi David - not having looked at the Zimo site does that mean that you could use just the 8-pins if you had a standard 8-pin decoder that was sufficient for you needs then ?

If so, then to me that would seem a good idea (within space contrainst's).

This layout should make it much easier for locomotives to be fitted or wired for both socket types as options. There may also be savings for decoder design as well. Given the relatively small quantities involved in decoder production, the development cost savings may be significant enough to affect the final product price.

David
 

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QUOTE (dbclass50 @ 4 Aug 2007, 04:49) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi David - not having looked at the Zimo site does that mean that you could use just the 8-pins if you had a standard 8-pin decoder that was sufficient for you needs then ?

If so, then to me that would seem a good idea (within space contrainst's).
The format of the pins is different so you couldn't use the plug but the wires on the circuit board are the same colours so you could probably hard wire it in.
 

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HI

The 21 pin was originally an ESU / Marklin thing and was created without much thought for other subests of pin-out requirements. The motivation was the existence of sound plus the new marklin 3 wire motor....

The 22 pin was actually initially proposed by an unusual Mfr combination of, from memory, Digitrax and Fleischmann.

Actually, the connectors themselves are identical (both are 22 pin actually) BUT

(1) the "blanking/polarity pin" is in a different place
(2) The 21 pin is female in loco and the 22 pin male in loco (or Vice versa)

I must admit that I also raised an eyebrow at the 22 pin concept which is called PLUX 22.

However...on considering it:

It has a much more sensible approach to other needs, such as "subsets" of connections as the pins have been more sensibly arranged.

ie: Subsets that will work with PLUX 22 but not 21 pin.

new possible 12 pin (existing sound decoder plus a couple of added Fn plus Speaker ec)
8 pin (as per existing 8 pin wires / new connector of course)
6 pin (as per existing 6 pin / new connector of course)

Whereas the 21 pin is a bit more of a problem for other than "ex factory" installs.

I predict that the 22 pin will actually win out in the end and the 21 pin will actually be localised on some brands of EU locomotives.

I predict too that for a long time, 8 pin will still dominate...

and

I'd not be surprised to see Bachmann go to the 22 pin soon - perhaps apart from loco's with ESU decoders factory fitted. (which is the only reason they use 21 pin now anyway)

Regards

Richard
DCCconcepts

as.... The 22 pinQUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 25 Jul 2007, 06:43) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It's the extra pin that gets me. 21 pin has been around for a year or so where as this 22 pin idea seems to have arisen in the last couple of months. If a 21 pin was in existence already what justifies complicating matters by adding just one more pin? Could this mark yet another split in the world of model rail?
 

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QUOTE I predict that the 22 pin will actually win out in the end and the 21 pin will actually be localised on some brands of EU locomotives.

I predict too that for a long time, 8 pin will still dominate...

As ESU amd Maerklin are using 21 pin, I also beleive that that will become the norm in Continental Europe. If Digitrax are using the 22 pin then I guess North America will be headed that way. The UK is still being converted to digital so that is more of an issue than how many pins.

I really would have preferred it if they just stuck to 8 pins.
 

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QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 5 Aug 2007, 23:21) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I really would have preferred it if they just stuck to 8 pins.


So would I - maybe use the standard 8-pin plus another plug/socket for the "extras", unless space issues become too much.
 

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I 've just purchased the new bachmann Class 47.

Given that I have no intention of adding sound in the foreseeable future whats the recommendation for converting to DCC

- do I shop around and apparently wait a few months for a converter so I can put a 8 pin decoder into it,
- hard wire a 8 pin decoder into it,
-or buy a 21 pin decoder

dave

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It depends on the price premium for "pure" 21 pin decoder vs 8 pin + decoder of your choice. I suspect that the number of 21 pin decoders available right now is limited and the prices are probably are the higher end of the range. If you are happy at the cheaper end of the market and don't want the high end features like RailCom, then the 8 pin converter + decoder is probably quite a few pounds cheaper. Conversely if you want an "All singing, all dancing" decoder go for a 21 pin unit; that's the choice I'd make but as a steam modeller, I am unlikely to have it.

David
 

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QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 22 Aug 2007, 23:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The problem right now is availability. I had to wait three months to get a 21 pin decoder.

Hello, First Post


I only had to wait 3 days for mine from a model shop in Bromsgrove.

ESU Lokopilot 21 Pin for about £21. No wires a right quality piece of kit.

Cheers.
 
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