[tekin65]

Hi to all,

After some busy times (hobbywise) i'm able to join you again.

I'll share my latest creation with you later today - hopefully. But before that i just wanted to share a "crazy" idea i've had a few days ago:

(don't know if that sort of thing already exists) I wonder if one can draw the family tree of the steam engines of Europe starting from the Stevenson's Rocket? I tend to think that new prototypes always take/use certain features from its forefathers (like G12 to Br58 to Br41, or Br44 to Br85) - so it should be a viable project to follow the family path of steam locomotives.

Well, maybe I'm wrong

If you think that such a project is feasable and would like to join, i'm willing to go ahead with it.

Best regards,

Cem.

 

[john woodall]

Hi Cem,

Well it is a thought.

In terms of your G12 - Class 58 example, that was caused by a numbering change from the German provincial railways to the DRG in 1925. All class 58's were previously german provincial rail 2-10-0 freight locomotives.

Class 58.0 Prussian G12.1
Class 58.1 Saschen XIII H (14 examples built 1917)
Class 58.2 Baden G12.1 - G12.5
Class 58.3 Baden G12.6 and G12.7
Class 58.4 Saschen XIII H (62 examples built 1919-1924)
Class 58.5 Wurttemberg G12
Class 58.10-21 Prussian G12

I would have though locomotive design followed the individual railways CME's thoughts.

That being said the DRG class 64 (2-6-2 tank) did share a huge amount of parts with the class 24 (2-6-0 tender).

Regards

John

 

[tekin65]

John hi,

You're right G12 --> Br58 was a faulty example, I meant the changes like Br44 --> Br85.

Regards,

Cem.

 

[tekin65]

QUOTE (john woodall @ 18 Mar 2008, 10:30) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I would have though locomotive design followed the individual railways CME's thoughts.

John

This being absolutely correct, i still tend to think that they have also examined the designs previously made and changed or improved them; like changes from S2/6 to S3/6 - technically they might be totally different (which I have no clue about) but many similarities (and reasons -for example- adding another driven axle) are also evident.

Regards,

Cem.

 

[34C]

Cem,

Some pieces of this have been done. I have seen a rather nice mapping of the inputs to Stephenson's Rocket, and then the developments into Planet, Patentee, and long boiler types like the Bourbonnais, with early offshoots like the Bury-Norris-American family and Crampton types. Cannot currently remember where I saw it though...

Thereafter it gets so busy as to require many parallel lines of descent. Each design house would have its' own family tree. Some of these are available, a specific English example being RAH Weight's survey of the Doncaster (GN) development from 'little Sharpie' (not that far from a Patentee) to the Pacifics and smaller types which essentially saw out steam in the UK.

 

[tekin65]

QUOTE (34C @ 18 Mar 2008, 11:32) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Cem,

Some pieces of this have been done.

That's great to hear, so at least the thought is not that far-out.

I agree with you that a project like this requires many parallel lines, that's why i would have suggested a project that might have handled by country-specific work-groups (members not necessarily from that particular country).

Regards,

Cem.

 

[poliss]

An interesting project, but if you want to do a complete family tree of steam locomotives you will have to go back to Nicolas Cugnot's fardier à vapeur of 1769. Then to Richard Trevithick's first railway locomotive of 1804, a full 25 years before Stephenson's Rocket.
Good luck with your project.

P.S. Please note that it is Stephenson, not Stevenson. We people from his birthplace in the North East of England can get a little touchy about his name.

 

[neil_s_wood]

Sounds good. Do you intend to publish this once completed?

It would make a good book.

 

[34C]

QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 18 Mar 2008, 21:52) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Sounds good. Do you intend to publish this once completed?

It would make a good book.
It would indeed, but also I fear a very expensive one. There's also the question of how to organise the information. A German title which I was able to read in a University library many years ago (Welthistoriches Dampflokomotiv Technik or words to that effect!) had it all well organised in text form supported by diagrams to show the enabling technical developments from their point of origin, Stephenson's synthesis of the 'basic format' and all key developments thereafter. But would you attempt to cover every single strand? There's something like a thousand classes of railway company inside cylinder goods 0-6-0 in the UK alone, built over a century in an arc from Crewe to Ashford, and all recognisably alike in form from first to last.

 

[tekin65]

Hi,

Sorry about the name Stephenson!

I tend to think that this can only be completed if there's a group effort, and I thought establishing project groups and publish the work on a website first. In my opinion this is the only way to hadle such a huge project.

Regards,

Cem.

 

[Sulzerman]

QUOTE (cem tekin @ 18 Mar 2008, 07:25) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>...
If you think that such a project is feasable and would like to join, i'm willing to go ahead with it.
...

One thing that has always struck me, is how steam locomotive design converged during the Second World War.
If you look at the German Br52 Kreigslok, especially the one without smoke deflectors, then compare it to the British WD 2-8-0 and 2-10-0, and the USRA 2-8-0. To me they are all remarkably similar. Of course they were all designed at about the same time and for the same purpose, but in three different countries, one of which was on the other side. I find it interesting that the designers all reached the same conclusions.

Cheers,

Peter.

 

[ebaykal]

QUOTE (Sulzerman @ 20 Mar 2008, 07:42) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>One thing that has always struck me, is how steam locomotive design converged during the Second World War.
If you look at the German Br52 Kreigslok, especially the one without smoke deflectors, then compare it to the British WD 2-8-0 and 2-10-0, and the USRA 2-8-0. To me they are all remarkably similar. Of course they were all designed at about the same time and for the same purpose, but in three different countries, one of which was on the other side. I find it interesting that the designers all reached the same conclusions.

Cheers,

Peter.

Very true indeed. Here is a Beyer-Peacock UK 2-10-0 very similar to DRG class 50.

Baykal

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (ebaykal @ 20 Mar 2008, 09:01) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Very true indeed. Here is a Beyer-Peacock UK 2-10-0 very similar to DRG class 50.
Baykal

At first glance I would have thought that was DRG50 !

 

[34C]

QUOTE (dbclass50 @ 20 Mar 2008, 09:41) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>At first glance I would have thought that was DRG50 !
Beyer Peacock building the DRG 50 design under contract I would imagine.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE (34C @ 21 Mar 2008, 00:11) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Beyer Peacock building the DRG 50 design under contract I would imagine.
It would have to be. That's almost identical right down to the Wagner smoke defelectors. I was just looking at these on Modelbahn Kramm a couple of minutes ago as they have them on special.