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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Am I missing something or has the thread, started by Gary and entitled something like 'Laddish Behaviour in Modelling/D&E', vanished without trace since lunchtime?
 

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It was trashed by one of the mods.

Looking at it (in the trash bin) - and it didn't really interest me before - it had started to degenerate into a slinging match between members. I would have deleted it too or removed half the posts had I seen it.
 

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Interesting, and ironic in the extreme, given the unsubstantiated inferences made by the OP.

But thanks for the clarification, Doug.
 

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All topics presented should relate to model railways subjects and not of personal abuse to members of the various forums.
 

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The issue was/is that there is another topic which includes aspersions and these now remain open.

The topic deleted was an effort to get something that seemed to be simmering in the background out into the open and I am all for honest and factual discussion. It was a pity that the personal abuse resulted in the whole topic being deleted just as we seemed to be getting somewhere.

Are we going to say that we can never put our head above the parapet and attempt to address something that may be controversial?

The nature of a forum is that you are very likely always going to upset somebody no matter what you say!


I do agree that personal abuse is not acceptable.

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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'The topic deleted was an effort to get something that seemed to be simmering in the background out into the open and I am all for honest and factual discussion. It was a pity that the personal abuse resulted in the whole topic being deleted just as we seemed to be getting somewhere.'

Well I don't recall seeing any name calling, However you were asked on more than one occasion to name the D+E web forums you were commenting on. You didnt. It's not the first time on MRF that D+E web sites or groups have been criticised, and sometimes with justification. However by continuing to be obtuse regarding those specific interest groups, people connected to D+E groups don't know if you are reffering to them, or other groups. Therefore people don't know if you are referring to them and the nature of the comments tar all D+E interest groups with the same brush, hence your actions raise hackles in doing that. So please in future if you have a comment regarding another web site or forum, please name it. I find the obtuse comments intensely annoying, and I'm not a member of any D+E groups apart from a couple Yahoo groups, which are very civilised.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
QUOTE (Gary @ 8 Mar 2007, 12:13) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The issue was/is that there is another topic which includes aspersions and these now remain open.... The topic deleted was an effort to get something that seemed to be simmering in the background out into the open

I'm presuming you refer to Ravenser's perception of D& E modelling? (I have no interest in discussing railtours, they've always attracted idiots and 25 years ago, I might have been one of them
)

QUOTE ...I am all for honest and factual discussion. It was a pity that the personal abuse resulted in the whole topic being deleted just as we seemed to be getting somewhere.

Agreed. As a D&E modeller of some 30+ years, I'm quite put out that the opportunity to present other viewpoints was taken away, in such a heavy handed manner

QUOTE I do agree that personal abuse is not acceptable.
Agreed, obviously. But given the above, why delete the whole topic
Why not just delete, or even just edit, the abusive post
 

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Exactly my sentiments.

I am not a dedicated D & E modeller however I do have an enquiring mind and when I read things that make me uncomfortable I do like to obtain more information as the facts may be missrepresented and in my view, rightly or wrongly, it is important to get to the bottom of uncomfortable reading. There was no reference to any specific forum made by myself so I am a little puzzled as to why there is finger pointing. D & E topics generally do seem to have an entirely different tone to steam topics and its a tone that I personally am uncomfortable with but that is me. All references and supporting evidence was drawn from this forum.

Putting your head above the parapet can put your topic in the firing line however it would be a pretty bland forum that did not allow its members to do this.

Personal abuse is not to be tolerated however and should be reported and removed if it causes offence.

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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While deleting an entire topic may seem heavy handed it is sometimes the best approach when things start to degenerate. By deleting the entire topic you are basically not "picking sides" and deciding on your own what is acceptable and what isn't. Leving it there but locking it to me seems even worse unless you would rather I censor each post. Since we have a private forum maybe next time I'll just move it there and you all can sling each other as much as you like but if you read the last couple of posts you could see why it was deleted and if I were to move this to the other forum I would never want to visit the private forum.

BTW,

I've been on a number of railtours in the US/Europe and I don't know what you guys are even talking about? I've never seen that kind of behaviour.
 

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As this has regrettably resurfaced, I suppose I need to disclaim misuse of a phrase of mine to make very serious , sweeping general accusations about potentially large numbers of people in the hobby, without any substantiation

I used the phrase "welcome to UK 4mm D+E" in a very specific context , controlled by quotations:

Firstly there was dbclass50's comment:

QUOTE
I suggest that the critics be a little "gentle" on the manufacture for there first effort, it's a learning curve for them, suggest rather than complain, praise where due & they will probably produce more UK models of locos that the modeller wants.

In principle , I'd have some sympathy with this approach to a munufacturer

Further down the thread spongebob commented on the response to that comment :

QUOTE
Ah well so much for go easy on it.

I quoted spongebob and made my now notorious remark.

I was specifically alluding to the fact that in recent years the merits and flaws of new 4mm RTR , especially diesel locos , have been crawled over with great intensity and some emotion on the internet and also in some of the magazines. I may think it's been OTT, and that the heated emotions generated have made it counterproductive, but it was very naive to think that faced with a model diesel in OO people on an internet forum were going to politely ignore any flaws in order to be nice to the manufacturer

Whatever your views on overheated reviewing, closed Yahoo groups, or light "bleed" this is light years away from disorderly behavoiur , ASBOs, railtours , and all the other muck flying round the thankfully deleted "Laddish Behaviour " thread.

I was at Warley 06 , on one day, helping with a stand and the atmosphere was calm relaxed and very pleasant . Those present on both days reported likewise. A club I'm a member of had a layout at Glasgow: none of those I've spoken to who were with the layout mentioned anything wrong about the show. Any attempt to speculate to the contrary (particularly by anyone not at the event concerned ) would be worse than mischevous

In no sense could the OP of that deleted topic be considered to be acting as any knind of messenger for me.

Now can we get back to model making
 

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OK gents and ladys if there are any on here i dont think fighting arguing and word slinging is going to be the way to solve anything so can we resovle this issiue and calm down please.


O no weres my helmet and enfield.
 

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QUOTE (M&GNR @ 10 Mar 2007, 13:29) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>OK gents and ladys if there are any on here i dont think fighting arguing and word slinging is going to be the way to solve anything so can we resovle this issiue and calm down please.

1. I object to the inference that I'm not a gentleman

2. I'm quite calm, thank you, and I dont see anybody losing their cool

3. Let's not forget who started the thoughtless 'word slinging', in the topic that was pulled.

4. Pulling topics as soon as people start to answer back isnt going to solve anything either

QUOTE (Dennis David @ 10 Mar 2007, 10:19) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>While deleting an entire topic may seem heavy handed it is sometimes the best approach when things start to degenerate. By deleting the entire topic you are basically not "picking sides" and deciding on your own what is acceptable and what isn't. .
I beg to differ, in this instance at least. Efficient moderation IMHO can involve moderating something that you basically agree with, but which is said in an unacceptable manner, or it could be allowing something to stand even though you disagree with it, because it's well argued and reasonable. That, to me, is being even-handed

It seems to me (as it has many times before) that Gary can say much what he likes without having to think through the consequences. Then when people understandably become aggrieved and duly respond (and it becomes evident that his view is an isolated one), drastic steps are taken which make the respondents look like the troublemakers

QUOTE ...if you read the last couple of posts you could see why it was deleted
I did see the post taking Gary to task, and I actually caught a glimpse of his reply later on, but as I was busy at work I couldnt study it properly. And then he has the nerve to post this:

QUOTE (Gary @ 10 Mar 2007, 09:42) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Personal abuse is not to be tolerated however and should be reported and removed if it causes offence.

This, after calling somebody (IIRC) a 'known troublemaker' and 'disruptive influence'. Sorry, but this bloke's continuing double standards really sicken me, especially when they are apparently endorsed by the moderators

QUOTE (Dennis David @ 10 Mar 2007, 10:21) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>. If some of you want to discuss the current state of society I suggest you discuss that on another forum
I dont, particularly, Dennis, but I do believe I should have the right to reply to vague, thoughtless and defamatory generalisations about sections of the hobby that I'm close to. That is in fact a topic related to railway modelling, is it not?

QUOTE or even better yet get a life.

Coming from a moderator, I do trust that emoticon is meant to be tongue in cheek

No doubt this thread will again now get pulled.
 

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Double standards are absolutly not endorsed. As far as morderating the individual replies, you have a point. But then I'm sure we'll have numerous disussions around "why was my comment deleted and not so and so's?"

As far as relating to our hobby, a topic relates only if the disussion will further our modelling pursuits orthe understanding of those. If it simply comments on peoples behavior how does that apply? Beteeen you and me I only just now figured out what D + E might mean and truthfully I've never though of that being a separate group. At least it's not in my mind. But back to the topic, in my opinion the entire topic was innapropriate regardless of the merits of individual responses. You'll notice we have never puled a topic regarding DCC to my knowledge even though those get quite heated.

As far as my comment about getting a life I would say, it was tongue in cheek but not quite firmly.
Even though I moderate this board I always wonder why some people, and I am not directing this against anyone, assume a different personality when they converse on a forum and that if you met the person in "real life" they are quite different. So the question in my mind is why is this so and I think in that case "getting a life applies" such that the person needs a forum, whether it is ours or not to really express themselves.

For myself, I think if you met me you would see that I am exactly as I am on this board. An "old" guy trying to stay young through his all too many hobbies.
 

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QUOTE dont, particularly, Dennis, but I do believe I should have the right to reply to vague, thoughtless and defamatory generalisations about sections of the hobby that I'm close to. That is in fact a topic related to railway modelling, is it not?

I do agree. Its a pity a whole topic was removed as a result of one members post just as we were drawing to a conclusion.

Happy modelling
Gary
 
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