Addresses - how much address capacity required?

I've just been doing some experimenting to confirm what is being said and to perhaps clear up some confusion.

Remember Short addressing uses CV1 as the loco address. This is basic addressing and should really be dependant on the decoder. Lenz Gold can have a range of 1 to 127.

Long addressing uses CV17 and CV18 to determine the high and low bits of the long address. The range of CV17 is 192 to 231 and the range of CV18 is 0 to 255. CV29 has to have a value of 32 added to it to turn on long addressing. This is all done and calculated automatically when using a system capable of handling long addressing such as the Lenz system 100 with the LH100 hand controller/programmer.

When using the Hornby Brit, I've programmed the long address to '7003'. The CV1 remains at the factory default of '3'.


Above, the loco can be controlled by the Lenz LH100, but not from the Arnold 86210 controller.



Here, I've set the CV1 of the loco to a value, then specifically back to '3'. Setting the CV1 seems to turn off long addressing with the Lenz system. Now the loco is controlled at address '3' by both the Lenz LH100 and the Arnold 86210 controller.

So it seems that in this case, you can't keep the long addressing on a layout that uses short addressing too. I thought that perhaps the short address controller could use the CV1 setting and the long address controller could use the long address of CV17 and CV18, but alas, that is not the case.

I wonder how the Hornby Select and Elite are going to function together. If they both use a shared database for long alpha-numeric names then that's great, but that won't be compatible with other Xpressnet controllers.

Very intresting we keep on coming back to that old chestnut conformability. Personally I couldnt careless what Hornby do. I'm not intresting in DCC on the cheap. It going to intresting to see how many Elite and Select units will be avialble on Ebay and at Swap meets in the new year. An opportunity missed. Next time Hornby have agreat plan I hope they run their fruitcake idea past me first.
Woops I forgot I'm no longer a share holder.

QUOTE Maybe we need to look more closely at functions?
Even in this respect the Hornby Elite is still behind the market average. According to Hornbys website the Elite only has 9 functions. Newer systems like the Roco MultiMaus and the ESU ECos have 20.

QUOTE Very intresting we keep on coming back to that old chestnut conformability. Personally I couldnt careless what Hornby do. I'm not intresting in DCC on the cheap. It going to intresting to see how many Elite and Select units will be availble on Ebay and at Swap meets in the new year. An opportunity missed
At the end of the day 50 addresses would probably do you, which I'm sure is what the purpose of this thread was, to prove the Hornby DCC attempts weren't below average. The point is that it does not conform with what any one else is doing. Like 00 scale it will help cut off the UK from the rest of the modelling world. This may benefit Hornby as it means that outsiders are unlikely to want to encroach on their territory and prevent competition. But it does nothing for choice in the UK market which has led to the lack of quality that is served up by the local manufacturer.

Ultimately the Hornby DCC will likely become popular with many local modellers as they are unaware of anything else and it may well be their first introduction to the concept. Those who are more clued up will obviously buy the better systems that are available overseas. But with such a huge market there is room for many products, even those who live in "the dark ages" with analogue. So really buy what ever suits your needs. Personally I am disappointed that Hornby continuously fail to take the initiative and act in a way to preserve their market dominance to the detriment of the customer.

QUOTE But it does nothing for choice in the UK market which has led to the lack of quality that is served up by the local manufacturer.

This same manufacturer is producing some of the finest models ever served up for the European markets at European prices. See the new Rivarossi Big Boy specification. Hornby are very capable of producing quality and high value products so those who think otherwise are on the wrong track. Yes I know I know however don't mistake production issues on a small sample of product with quality and value. And don't mistake offering something at a high price as offering something of quality either. Hornby produce products for the UK market and products for the European market (as do Bachmann). Different markets have different customers with different aspirations and nothing wrong with a company that has the flexibility to accomodate this.

Its companies that fail to adapt to the customers needs that struggle.

Hornby are very capable of producing a £300 DCC system (as are Bachmann) however it would gather dust on the UK stockists shelves. Thats the reality.

There is absolutely no way going forward that we should be sniping at UK Hornby DCC users just because they are considered to have a "junior" system by the DCC elite. How does this reflect on the incumbant DCC community?

Model Rail Forum wants to welcome all DCC users new and old and the new breed will be looking for help from the old breed. Thats how it should be!

Now back to the topic in hand.

Happy modelling
Gary

PS spending is all relative and having visited a few websites its very clear that we have modellers at MRF with deep pockets. Nothing wrong with that and there are fantastic layouts featured that some of us can only dream about. For those on a tighter budget and with limited space then the cost of a DCC system may also have to be relatively scaled down hence this need in this topic to establish how things such as address capacity requirements for a layout can be calculated.

I presume you refering to me with the sniping. Thats a bit unfair since the point I was making BROTHERS is the specification on the Elite should have been a little sharper. I've made my point you may not agree, but thats what forums are all about.

I saw an Elite advertised at £98.00 it's hardly an expencive piece of kit. The select was going for £70 odd. It probably cheaper than the large H&M that Hornby peddle. As I said in a previous post I have a coffee maker that cost double that so I suppose you have to see this development in a relative light.

I'm 100% for the spread of DCC. Once the limitations of the select are realised maybe one or two might tempted to more expencive kit.

I myself was not refering to any one person.

MMaD. I was not having a go at anyone in particular on the DCC side and you are welcome to share your views. OK as you say the Hornby set up may have its limitations and users in time may move on. I believe that the DCC industry in the UK broadly welcomes the Hornby move as it should encourage large numbers to have a go and see the benefits for themselves for a relatively small outlay. If users ultimately want more then there are plenty of options.

Now I am as curious as David is about what you feel may be missing from your Digitrax system.

It was more the general opinion that British manufacturers are not capable of making a quality product which seemed slighty unfair. Given that there is a wide viewing audience for all views and opinions expressed at Model Rail Forum it was really a question of providing some balance and food for thought.

There could well be a lot of new British DCC users in 2007 and having made the jump into the brave new world it surely has to provide them with a better feeling that they have made the right move if we are seen to be helpful rather than sowing seeds of doubt.

Happy modelling
Gary

Well an unexpected opportunity to air my view on Digitrax. First a bit of history and why I choose Digitrax.

I started with ZTC and following up on an advert and article in 1994 Railway Toddler I visited Robin Palmer in Safon Waldon and bought a 511, 30 odd decoders a transformer. I then returned to South Africa and started to install decoders in my N gauge stock. It was a battle, with little documentation, and there was not much on the internet either. My inital batch of decoders would just fit inside a Farish tender. I had a lovely railway room and a large N gauge layout, but no one I knew used DCC. I was something of a novelty, folks visited my layout, but I'm sure they thought me insane.

Things moved on, my business expanded at a rapid rate, it demanded a lot committment, there was little time for railways. Finally a house move resulted in me establishing a complex n gauge layout in new railway room. I went back to DC control for a while, as the problems with new smaller decoders just compounded my frustation. A failure of one batch of new decoders to store progaming details meant hours of modifications of Farish chassises were put on hold. it was a frustating time.

I then decided to change to 00 with the change of century to make things easier on the eye sight. Initally I has a simple loop around the room. I started using Hornby tender drives with my ZTC 511 and the decoders I had. I had the ZTC511 catch fire one night. I replaced a bridge recifier, but a few weeks later I had a repeat performance. Rather than return my 511 to a then defunct ZTC (before they were bought out) I looked around for a replacement DCC unit. I had long been attracted to a fast clock and this brought me into contact with the local Digitrax agent in South Africa. Lenz had an agent who charged according to your appearance, with the more affluient being charged more. The was no local agent for Easy DCC or NCE at the time, so the choice was Lenz or Digitrax. I chose Digitrax especially as the agent was only 10 mins drive from me, and for the first time I actually got a fair amount of support and advice.

Initally I bought the Chef set, a DCS100 and two DT100 radio hand controllers. I hated these, the function keys were difficult to get used to, so I continued to used my 511 for programming. Digitrax documentation was a bit overwelming at first, I heard that Lenz is similar. I now feel at easy with Digitrax documentation.
Things changed for me when Digitrax introduced the DT300 and then the DT400 trottle. Thats when I started to love my Digitrax system. The handset is easy to use for all features. It can control two loco's and recall upto another 24. Features all functions, you program with it in a choice of four modes, including 'on the main', and it's easy to use. I now have four of these trottles, and as I have a radio reciever UR91 it's great for walk round control. I sold my old DT100 trottles and bought a couple of UT4 trottles just for visitors, their simple, and they keep fingers off of critical functions. As my layout grew, I added a DB150 booster to power a reverse loop and a seperate power zone. Expansion was simple. Digitrax use Loconet for a control bus, this has been 100% reliable. in fact the only failure I've has was when UP3 (the unit you plug a trottle) into failed and this caused me to have to trouble shoot this failure, this took me 10 odd hours.

I feel at home with Digitrax it does what it's supposed to do. There's never been a software up grade for my DCS100 it's not necessary. With other systems frequent changes to software have necesitated changes to EMPOMs and upgrades, not with Digitrax they got it right first time. When I need to add to my system all the bit and pieces needed are available. Price of the unit was not one of my considerations. First and foremost the system must be able to handle what I want from it. I've seen Digitrax in action on some huge layouts, operation has been flawless. The handset concept is far more at home on the large layout rather than the central control unit. With the handset you can be there right at the centre of the action, perhaps shunting, organising a locoshed, or running a busy station. Loconet functions well and is seemless.

What system would I buy today, well living as I now do in the UK Lenz probably springs to the fore. I don't think it would be my system of choice. But I acknowledge that it's a good alternative, and they have an excellent agent in Mackays. Digitrax from my experience would be my system of choice. I'm fortunate for me cost isn't the issue, function is. As a second choice perhaps NCE or even Zimo. I'm firmly convinced that Handsets rather than control centres is the way to go with DCC.

Yes I agree with you. But I think we'll wait a while Digitrax are having a big push into the UK market.

QUOTE I presume you refering to me with the sniping. Thats a bit unfair since the point I was making BROTHERS is the specification on the Elite should have been a little sharper. I've made my point you may not agree, but thats what forums are all about.
I actually thought he was having a go at me?

I agree with what you say completely about the Elite. If you are going to have two systems one of which is a beginner system and an alleged advanced system, then it would be reasonable to expect that the advanced system should have the features typically associated with advanced systems. The Elite we have established doesn't have these so it is a mid range system and should really be considered as such.

I can see Garys arguement that these Hornby systems are essentially the DCC equivelant of McDonalds, cheap, cheerful and will suffice for the majority of newcomers to digital. It isn't aimed at people who are into DCC, it's aimed at people who aren't. So my issues are really about the way it is being overportrayed.

I might have another look at Digitrax after what you said, I had done before but discounted them, I can't remember why. Local support here in Ozz is good as it seems to be the most popular DCC system here.

In side my Sunday paper this weekend was a mini Argos catalogue. I had a peek at the digital cameras on offer
and then thought AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH as you, do wonder what train sets their offering kids this Christmas. Nothing folks, thats right zip. Some digital Scale Electric and that's it. True there will probably be something in the instore catalogue. Sign of the times ?

Whats the message from this. Kids don't get trainsets anymore, Adults do. Which segment of the market is the Hornby Select marketed at ?. By enlarge it's a suffocated Adult market.

BTW Neil I don't think you can go wrong with Digitrax, it's a mature developed system that can be expanded almost indefinately. Normally there's good support and it's well suited to larger layouts.