[ebaykal]

I've always wondered. Is there such a thing in model trains? Can we regard one loco as antique? What are the criteria for a model train to be regarded as antique? so on..

You know how it all starts. One way or another we all started off with a kind of start set that was either a gift or Pa bought you one but actually played himself before it was claimed by you.

Mine was the second. Pa bought me an "American Flyer" start set . I was five years old. 1959.
There was two brands in the states at that time. Lionel and American flyer all in "S" scale.
Lionel was the 3 rail AC system and the American Flyer ( also known as Gilbert and Co.) normal 2 rail system.
Lionel still continues as far as I know but American Flyer no longer exists.( not sure but think lionel bought them)
I still have that set plus with a lot of extensions that dad supposedly bought for me at that time.

and its still running.

Pictures below:

Now can I regard this as an Antique set or what?

Cheers
Baykal

 

[goedel]

Good question, how to define an antique model train?

Presumably at the very least it has to be old, but 100 years seems a little excessive since it would rule almost everything out!

It obviously helps if it is from a deceased company or a defunct gauge because it becomes rarer and therefore more collectible in some peoples minds. Perhaps an antique can be defined as any model where having the packaging intact adds at least 50% to the value of the item!

Other key features will be the presence of inlaid hardwood, perhaps rust and perhaps the incorrect feet. No plastic allowed unless bakerlite. A patina is always good, especially on a hallmarked solid silver Stephenson's Rocket dinner service!!

Seriously, I think there are very few antique model trains about, but lots well described as collectors model trains.

Goedel

 

[Ravenser]

ebaykal:

It's borderline , but your American Flyer set is getting close....

QUOTE Presumably at the very least it has to be old, but 100 years seems a little excessive since it would rule almost everything out!

Arguably anything pre World War 2 could be considered in this light - Hornby Gauge O timplate being an obvious example. The earliest Hornby gauge O sets are now 86 years old

QUOTE No plastic allowed unless bakerlite

What about early Triang - now over half a century old. ?

 

[pedromorgan]

i think its when it stops being practical to run it and it becomes of interest to collectors only.

Peter

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (pedromorgan @ 22 Apr 2007, 07:37) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i think its when it stops being practical to run it and it becomes of interest to collectors only.

Peter

Very well put Peter !

 

[Ozzie21]

Well in the US much of Lionel's three rail stuff is regarded as a collectors item and anything from American Flyer or Marx is almost regarded as an antique. I've seen those collector shows on cable where some of these old sets are valued at phenominal prices especially if they have the original box. You shoild take it along to one of those auction shows and have it valued.

Ozzie21

QUOTE (ebaykal @ 21 Apr 2007, 07:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I've always wondered. Is there such a thing in model trains? Can we regard one loco as antique? What are the criteria for a model train to be regarded as antique? so on..

You know how it all starts. One way or another we all started off with a kind of start set that was either a gift or Pa bought you one but actually played himself before it was claimed by you.

Mine was the second. Pa bought me an "American Flyer" start set . I was five years old. 1959.
There was two brands in the states at that time. Lionel and American flyer all in "S" scale.
Lionel was the 3 rail AC system and the American Flyer ( also known as Gilbert and Co.) normal 2 rail system.
Lionel still continues as far as I know but American Flyer no longer exists.( not sure but think lionel bought them)
I still have that set plus with a lot of extensions that dad supposedly bought for me at that time.

and its still running.

Pictures below:

Now can I regard this as an Antique set or what?

Cheers
Baykal

 

[7113]

The Fleischmann company is celebrating their 120th anniversary this year, and were certainly making toy trains, as opposed to model railways before the first world war. Then there is Bing and Marklin, both making lithgraphed toys at the end of the nineteenth century. Those toys from this period can now sell for thousands of pounds.

Additionally Hornby Dublo was certainly about in the 1930's.

Makes you think doesn't it.

Regards

John

 

[Gary]

From a British perspective antique would probably be from a period before the Big 4 were formed so any model loco in a pre 1923 livery that was actually produced before 1923 would probably be classified as antique. I would go along with the museum piece theory suggested by Peter.

Anybody with memories of playing with pre 1923 toy trains as kids would now have to be a minimum of 90 years young.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[60134]

I have a horrible feeling that an antique is anything over 60 years old - how many on this forum qualify?

60134

 

[7113]

QUOTE (Gary @ 24 Apr 2007, 14:03) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Anybody with memories of playing with pre 1923 toy trains as kids would now have to be a minimum of 90 years young.
Happy modelling
Gary

Not nesessarily.. my father was born in 1930 - his eldest brother was born in 1920, handed down toys (and clothes) were very common in the years between the wars. I even inherited some pre-war Dinky toys in the 60's.

QUOTE (60134 @ 24 Apr 2007, 14:17) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I have a horrible feeling that an antique is anything over 60 years old - how many on this forum qualify?

60134

Thankfully I don't, and I'm much too polite to ask!!

Regards

John

 

[Gary]

Another word that I spotted the other day in an article was relic

Is a relic older or newer than an antique and what would you consider to be relics in the railway modelling world?

Is anything produced in a factory that has been demolished a relic?

Such as a wagon being a relic of the Dublo factory in Liverpool, or the Graham Farish factory in Bromley, Kent?

Or is a relic something that can no longer be used with current day products without modification such as Trix TTR kit or is no longer useful such as old electrical equipment that basically could be hazardous?

Relics used to be bags of bones carries around by druids and such like who practiced all sorts of weird and wacky things. It could be that a relic is simply classified as something that no longer has any practical use except in the eye of the beholder.

This of course is different to an antique which could still have a practical use.

When looking for collectables if something is described as being an "antique" would it merit any more attention than something described as being a "relic"?

Relics can of course still be in production as there are relics of the Triang days still being manufacturered and sold. The original Triang Princess with the plunger pick ups could be classified as both an antique and a relic. What chance Hornby releasing this version as a limited edition!

And what about Lima relics!

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[neil_s_wood]

Relic sounds alomst prehistoric whereas antique is dated. Fifty years would be right for model trains. I think that some are obviously antigue such as the tin plate ones and the Trix Express.

 

[7113]

In general terms the word relic relates to either religous items or fragments of the whole. Generally a relic is much older than a mere antiquity.

Regards

John

 

[ebaykal]

Now is this antiquity or what ?!

http://cgi.ebay.com/MARKLIN-LMS-800-catego...1QQcmdZViewItem

Baykal

 

[goedel]

QUOTE (BRITHO @ 21 May 2007, 13:08) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>In general terms the word relic relates to either religous items or fragments of the whole. Generally a relic is much older than a mere antiquity.
And normally, all relics are fakes! (That is of course unless all the Saints, Prophets and Virgins of all the religions in the world were in fact Hindu gods with all the dozens of arms, legs and heads required for all those shrines to have the real article!!)

Is there any fake Fleischmann or Hornby dating from before about 1300AD? If so you've found a relic!!

Goedel

 

[Richard Johnson]

Baykal:

Quote:
"Mine was the second. Pa bought me an "American Flyer" start set . I was five years old. 1959.
There was two brands in the states at that time. Lionel and American flyer all in "S" scale.
Lionel was the 3 rail AC system and the American Flyer ( also known as Gilbert and Co.) normal 2 rail system.
Lionel still continues as far as I know but American Flyer no longer exists.( not sure but think lionel bought them)
I still have that set plus with a lot of extensions that dad supposedly bought for me at that time.

and its still running"
and
"Now can I regard this as an Antique set or what?"

***
No matter what its called, it is certainly very "collectable".
The condition of your American Flyer and accessories is exceptionally good.
It certainly has real market value to collectors in that condition, so I'd continue look after it super well.
There is an American model train valuation book published by Greenebrg I believe - this may give you some indication.
Certainly I'd try to find a club or organisation in USA and qualify the value. Depending on the model and its model number, condition, packaging etc it may have a significant value that should be realised for insurance.

Or it may be enough for loksound for your entire "new empire"

Worth checking anyway!

 

[cmanvell]

I just did a 'define:antique' on Google. The general consensus was that Antique meant over 100 years old.

"The US government considers any item over 100 years old to be an antique, whereas most collectors use 50 years as a benchmark.
"www.furniturebrains.com/glossary/a.htm"

However, there was one definition that went for 60!

"Area rugs over 60 years of age.
"www.rugsale.com/area/rugs/area-rugs-glossary/"

As for relics, you pays yer muny and taks yer chois. Fer instns.

"o an antiquity that has survived from the distant past
"o keepsake: something of sentimental value
" wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn"

but I like this un.

"o Leftover creation of the Ancients. Most are in very bad shape, but a few are mysteriously preserved.
" www.savageearth.net/glossary.html"

I also had a look for veteran. The result was completely biased to the, mainly, American usage as an ex soldier. Howerver...

"o Veteran - Vehicles built up-to and including December 1904
" http://www.vccofgb.co.uk/index2.htm"

And they should know. They've been around since 1930!

Hope that throws some confusion on the matter!

All the best,
Chris