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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi
Just joind the forum but did post as a guest regarding an archangel prince of wales ,a web link on a reply to that post gave me an address and telephone number for the makers steward browne
Unfortunatly they have not responded to a letter and no one answers the telephone
Since then I have found some info on the engine but I am a complete novice with steam
can anyone help with the following
On the left floor of the cab there is a vertical tube with a cap and a thin pipe with a small hole running through it I assume this is an oiler ,if this is right what sort of oil should be in this and how far up the tube
I feel a bit daft in asking this but how do I get the burners to burn properly ,I light them and they burn for a few seconds and die down as though they are short of air
The details I have been able to obtain reads side water tanks with hand pump ,air tank ??? what or where is the air tank
Thanks for any help
Peter
 

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Welcome to the Forum. I don't know any specifics about the particular loco you have, and therefore I am only guessing. I assume the 'thin pipe with a hole' passes through the 'Vertical tube with a cap' in which case this is likely to be a 'displacement lubricator'. A small amount of the steam passing to the cylinders condenses to water which, being heavier than oil, falls to the bottom of the tube and displaces the oil so some is fed into the thin pipe and is carried by the rest of the steam to the cylinders. You will need some form of 'steam oil' which is resistant to the high steam temperature. That's quite an important to thing to find out - what oil the maker recommends.

You don't say anything about the type of fuel being fed to the burners or the gauge/scale of the loco, so I don't think I can help you on the burner problem.

There must be others about who have this make of loco. Possible sources to try, depending on the gauge or scale, are:
www.gauge0guild.com (I think that is a 'zero' (0) rather than an O)
www.16mm.org.uk - this is the Association of 16mm Narrow Gauge Modellers.
There is a Gauge 1 Society around as well.

Your local model engineering society may also be worth seeking out; many of the members of such societies make/operate steam engines.

Hope the above is of help,
John Webb
 

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Thank you for the info
I didnt know quite know how the oiler worked but the rather thick oil in the tube lead me to believe thats what it was ,so I suppose it would have to be oil that is happy at 100 deg c I will try the links you have added, the manufacturer is to say the least difficult if not impossible to contact
the engine is 0 gauge and the fuel is meths
Peter
QUOTE (John Webb @ 11 Nov 2007, 23:19) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Welcome to the Forum. I don't know any specifics about the particular loco you have, and therefore I am only guessing. I assume the 'thin pipe with a hole' passes through the 'Vertical tube with a cap' in which case this is likely to be a 'displacement lubricator'. A small amount of the steam passing to the cylinders condenses to water which, being heavier than oil, falls to the bottom of the tube and displaces the oil so some is fed into the thin pipe and is carried by the rest of the steam to the cylinders. You will need some form of 'steam oil' which is resistant to the high steam temperature. That's quite an important to thing to find out - what oil the maker recommends.

You don't say anything about the type of fuel being fed to the burners or the gauge/scale of the loco, so I don't think I can help you on the burner problem.

There must be others about who have this make of loco. Possible sources to try, depending on the gauge or scale, are:
www.gauge0guild.com (I think that is a 'zero' (0) rather than an O)
www.16mm.org.uk - this is the Association of 16mm Narrow Gauge Modellers.
There is a Gauge 1 Society around as well.

Your local model engineering society may also be worth seeking out; many of the members of such societies make/operate steam engines.

Hope the above is of help,
John Webb
 

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I should think the Gauge 0 Guild the best bet to try first then.

Re the burners - either the wicks need reducing in height so that the flames are a bit smaller and so the air coming in is adequate, or there may be a problem in the fuel feed line to the burners so they are starved of fuel. Should burn with a clear blueish flame; if mostly yellowish then there may not be enough air.

A few words of warning - do make certain you are in a well-ventilated area when you are trying out the model and ensure there is absolutely no flame about when filling or refilling the fuel tank.

Do have a look on your local library shelves or in the county library catalogue. There have been a number of books written on live steam models and locomotives. Even some of the older ones (by Greenly or E A Steel, for example) will be helpful, I am sure.
Regards,
John Webb
 

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QUOTE (Beekeeper @ 11 Nov 2007, 21:21) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi
Just joind the forum but did post as a guest regarding an archangel prince of wales ,a web link on a reply to that post gave me an address and telephone number for the makers steward browne
Unfortunatly they have not responded to a letter and no one answers the telephone
Since then I have found some info on the engine but I am a complete novice with steam
can anyone help with the following
On the left floor of the cab there is a vertical tube with a cap and a thin pipe with a small hole running through it I assume this is an oiler ,if this is right what sort of oil should be in this and how far up the tube
I feel a bit daft in asking this but how do I get the burners to burn properly ,I light them and they burn for a few seconds and die down as though they are short of air
The details I have been able to obtain reads side water tanks with hand pump ,air tank ??? what or where is the air tank
Thanks for any help
Peter

Hi Beekeeper, welcome to the forum. Re Archangel locos; They were one of the first manufacturers of successful 16mm scale Narrow Gauge live steam locomotives when I was young and it was always my ambition to own one! They ceased manufacture as such some years ago but Stuart Browne has recently been hand building more or less to commission. His present website http://www.pherber.com/archangel/ gives an address and two 'phone numbers. As he may be attending Exhibitions etc I suggest trying his mobile.
Under no circumstances use Motor Car Oil - this contains additives that will clog up cylinders and steam lines. I suggest a medium or even thick Steam Oil and taken up to the level of the thin pipe and the hole. Steam (especially if superheated or the steam line to the cylinders passes through the burner which is a sort of superheating I suppose) is over 100 degrees, they are not little toys like Mamods! The boiler pressure I seem to remember was higher than most other makes, around 70psi (most others are 30/40psi) and the safety valves tend to let out the most impressive 'raspberry' I have ever heard from a loco of this size.
It is essential that you remove and test that the safety valve has not jammed if it has not been used for some time as calcium or rust can build up and dont stand over it either, if the steam plume from the valve hits you in the face you will not be too happy!
If you live in a hard-water area I suggest you use de-ionised or distilled water (or in my case de-humidifier waste water).
I presume it is meths fired as it was once the most common method in which case the burner problem is either meths not reaching the burner ie a blockage somewhere or the wicks are knackered and need replacing. It has just occurred to me, is this 'internally fired' ie. it has a single internal tube through the boiler that the burner is in - if it is it needs a 'blower' on the chimney to provide a draught to supply air to it when raising steam. If it is a 'pot boiler' which has no boiler tube and the burner is beneath the boiler then the previous comment applies. If it is gas-fired then a blockage in the system is likely but it is possible that the jet is partially blocked or needs adjustment.
The hand pump should be useful in topping up the boiler during running (in steam) do you actually have the detachable lever which operates it - the actual pump usually sits in the tank covered with water.
I would suggest that you do have a look at the 16mm Narrow Gauge Modellers main website http://16mm.org.uk/ as this will lead you to a very friendly bunch of people who will be able to provide you with much more information. It is always worth checking out your local group as we all enjoy meeting newcomers to our hobby and helping each other out with advice (and looking at the size of my response I am no different).
The O Gauge Guild may be able to help but the Locomotive that you have is a 16mm/ft scale; 32mm gauge model of a Welsh Narrow Gauge Locomotive (Welshpool & Llanfair?), the O gauge people sometimes regard us 16mm Narrow Gauge modellers as a bit odd!
regards
David Y
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for all the Info
I rang the phone number on his website and was answerd by a lady who said he use to be here but he moved about 2 years ago ,I think it is somewhere in Shropshire ??
Which is strange because the website says it was updated in Nov07
It is meths fuel internally fired or I belive thats how you would describe it, the burners (2 0f them are in a indentation in the bottom of the boiler with a tube running down the center of the boiler to the chimney and the pipes to the oiler running inside flame
Is the blower (sucker I suppose) something which is readily available or can I just use a small ,cooling fan from a computer CPU heat sink ,
I dont have the tool to operate the pump but I pumped some water in using a small tube as a handle before I tried lighing it, the pump seems to be the only way to fill the boiler and as far as I can see there is no way of draining it
local clubs may be a problem ,the nearest would appear to be about 40 miles away but there is a model rail fair at Lincoln show ground in a couple of weeks ,might have the engine running by then and looking for track, with a bit of luck
Thanks again for all the help
Regards Peter

QUOTE (Dinwiddy @ 12 Nov 2007, 23:10) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Beekeeper, welcome to the forum. Re Archangel locos; They were one of the first manufacturers of successful 16mm scale Narrow Gauge live steam locomotives when I was young and it was always my ambition to own one! They ceased manufacture as such some years ago but Stuart Browne has recently been hand building more or less to commission. His present website http://www.pherber.com/archangel/ gives an address and two 'phone numbers. As he may be attending Exhibitions etc I suggest trying his mobile.
Under no circumstances use Motor Car Oil - this contains additives that will clog up cylinders and steam lines. I suggest a medium or even thick Steam Oil and taken up to the level of the thin pipe and the hole. Steam (especially if superheated or the steam line to the cylinders passes through the burner which is a sort of superheating I suppose) is over 100 degrees, they are not little toys like Mamods! The boiler pressure I seem to remember was higher than most other makes, around 70psi (most others are 30/40psi) and the safety valves tend to let out the most impressive 'raspberry' I have ever heard from a loco of this size.
It is essential that you remove and test that the safety valve has not jammed if it has not been used for some time as calcium or rust can build up and dont stand over it either, if the steam plume from the valve hits you in the face you will not be too happy!
If you live in a hard-water area I suggest you use de-ionised or distilled water (or in my case de-humidifier waste water).
I presume it is meths fired as it was once the most common method in which case the burner problem is either meths not reaching the burner ie a blockage somewhere or the wicks are knackered and need replacing. It has just occurred to me, is this 'internally fired' ie. it has a single internal tube through the boiler that the burner is in - if it is it needs a 'blower' on the chimney to provide a draught to supply air to it when raising steam. If it is a 'pot boiler' which has no boiler tube and the burner is beneath the boiler then the previous comment applies. If it is gas-fired then a blockage in the system is likely but it is possible that the jet is partially blocked or needs adjustment.
The hand pump should be useful in topping up the boiler during running (in steam) do you actually have the detachable lever which operates it - the actual pump usually sits in the tank covered with water.
I would suggest that you do have a look at the 16mm Narrow Gauge Modellers main website http://16mm.org.uk/ as this will lead you to a very friendly bunch of people who will be able to provide you with much more information. It is always worth checking out your local group as we all enjoy meeting newcomers to our hobby and helping each other out with advice (and looking at the size of my response I am no different).
The O Gauge Guild may be able to help but the Locomotive that you have is a 16mm/ft scale; 32mm gauge model of a Welsh Narrow Gauge Locomotive (Welshpool & Llanfair?), the O gauge people sometimes regard us 16mm Narrow Gauge modellers as a bit odd!
regards
David Y
 

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Normally the safety valve can be removed to fill these boilers. The meths feed was a "chick feed" type that needed adjustment. I'll consult my old Archangel catalogues and spec sheets when I get home tonight and try and add some detail to this post. I know Stuart was still repairing old Archangels when he lived at Little Hereford in the '90s so I'd keep trying him.

60134
 

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QUOTE (Beekeeper @ 14 Nov 2007, 23:49) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thanks for all the Info...

..Is the blower (sucker I suppose) something which is readily available or can I just use a small ,cooling fan from a computer CPU heat sink ,
I dont have the tool to operate the pump but I pumped some water in using a small tube as a handle before I tried lighing it, the pump seems to be the only way to fill the boiler and as far as I can see there is no way of draining it
local clubs may be a problem ,the nearest would appear to be about 40 miles away but there is a model rail fair at Lincoln show ground in a couple of weeks ,might have the engine running by then and looking for track, with a bit of luck
Thanks again for all the help
Regards Peter

Hi - To fill the boiler faster from cold I think you may have to unscrew one of the fittings from the top of the boiler often the safety valve.
Yes a sucker would be a better name really! A computer fan might be OK but I am doubtful. Something metal would be much better as I dont think the plastics used will cope with the heat. It needs to have a short tube attached which will slide into the chimney fairly snugly. when you have a little pressure up remove the electric blower (without burning yourself) & the loco may have a steam blower to take over. When you start running turn the steam blower off as the exhaust blast replaces it - just like the real thing. Its easer to demonstrate than describe.
If you can find a 16mm Association group even 40 miles away, you might find that some members live near you and we do tend to form informal little groups to run on available garden layouts. I only have room for a very small 'test' garden layout myself and take advantage of offers from other members for 'proper' runs - hopefully running in the New Years Night!!(I think his neighbours regard us as just a little odd!).
Peco do SM32 track (32mm gauge), but keep your eyes open for old second-hand coarse O gauge track as well, usually wooden sleeper stuff, it can even be a bit rusty for live steam - you dont need expensive brass.
Regards
David
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for the reply
Pouring the water in to the boiler through the safety valve seems like a good idea I did pump some water in but I have since discovered that water is leaking from a rubber hose linking the two tanks together, its perished and brittle ,its thick walled 3.5mm bore not sure if the water in the pipe would be too hot for plastic,or if I have to use rubber, assuming its still available
Because of this leak and the difficulty of cleaning the pipe protruding from the tanks I have spent some considerable time in dismantling the whole engine to make sure nothing else is worn or broken
I will try a CPU fan and see if it gets too hot the plastic of the blades are a hard non thermoplastic type and as I have a number of old ones I have nothing to lose by trying
I can see at the front under the chimney where the exhaust comes up but I can not see any other form of blower, when the throttle is closed it would appear the steam vents through a pipe out the side of the cab
Regards Peter
QUOTE (Dinwiddy @ 16 Nov 2007, 13:56) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi - To fill the boiler faster from cold I think you may have to unscrew one of the fittings from the top of the boiler often the safety valve.
Yes a sucker would be a better name really! A computer fan might be OK but I am doubtful. Something metal would be much better as I dont think the plastics used will cope with the heat. It needs to have a short tube attached which will slide into the chimney fairly snugly. when you have a little pressure up remove the electric blower (without burning yourself) & the loco may have a steam blower to take over. When you start running turn the steam blower off as the exhaust blast replaces it - just like the real thing. Its easer to demonstrate than describe.
If you can find a 16mm Association group even 40 miles away, you might find that some members live near you and we do tend to form informal little groups to run on available garden layouts. I only have room for a very small 'test' garden layout myself and take advantage of offers from other members for 'proper' runs - hopefully running in the New Years Night!!(I think his neighbours regard us as just a little odd!).
Peco do SM32 track (32mm gauge), but keep your eyes open for old second-hand coarse O gauge track as well, usually wooden sleeper stuff, it can even be a bit rusty for live steam - you dont need expensive brass.
Regards
David
 

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This is the Archangel spec for internally fired locos:

"A fire enclosed in the firebox with no natural draught. Therefore a blower will be required to draw the fire until there is enough steam to operate the steam blower fitted to the boiler. When the loco is running the exhaust draws the fire and blower is usually turned off. The model is fitted with a hand pumpfor feeding water into the boiler (this is fitted inside the side tanks). Both side tanks hold water.

The meths spirit used for firing the model is housed in the bunker tank and is fed to the wick burners automatically. Internally fired models can be kept in steam continuously providing the water and meths supplies are kept topped up.

Prince of Wales - internally fired with meth spirit. Two outside cylinders operated by slip eccentric valve gear inside the frames operating rocking levers. Detail includes handrails, footsteps, dummy whistle, lamp irons, cab roof beading, air tank (this is the item behind the cab steps), coal rail. Side tanks hold water.

EXTRAS, blower unit. Optional extras, pressure gauge, whistle. Supplied in cardboard box (!). Min radius curve 5' 6". Weight 6lbs."

The loco was originally priced at about £750

60134
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks for the additional info
one thing confuses me though, the steam blower
After much examinantion of the boiler and controls the only thing I can see that could turn a steam blower on or off is the throttle
turned one way the throttle opens a valve to the oiler==cylinders
turned the otherway it opens to a vent out of the cab and to a pipe that runs into the boilers internal fire alongside the cylinder steam supply but I cant see where it goes to ,I would have expected it to come through to the chamber under the chimney but I can see no sign of it
I will have to put a fibre optic down the fire tube so I can see where it goes
Thanks once again to all who have given advice here it is very much appreciated
Peter

QUOTE (60134 @ 16 Nov 2007, 19:13) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>This is the Archangel spec for internally fired locos:

"A fire enclosed in the firebox with no natural draught. Therefore a blower will be required to draw the fire until there is enough steam to operate the steam blower fitted to the boiler. When the loco is running the exhaust draws the fire and blower is usually turned off. The model is fitted with a hand pumpfor feeding water into the boiler (this is fitted inside the side tanks). Both side tanks hold water.

The meths spirit used for firing the model is housed in the bunker tank and is fed to the wick burners automatically. Internally fired models can be kept in steam continuously providing the water and meths supplies are kept topped up.

Prince of Wales - internally fired with meth spirit. Two outside cylinders operated by slip eccentric valve gear inside the frames operating rocking levers. Detail includes handrails, footsteps, dummy whistle, lamp irons, cab roof beading, air tank (this is the item behind the cab steps), coal rail. Side tanks hold water.

EXTRAS, blower unit. Optional extras, pressure gauge, whistle. Supplied in cardboard box (!). Min radius curve 5' 6". Weight 6lbs."

The loco was originally priced at about £750

60134
 
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