[Steve1957]

Greetings. Two apologies first off: 1) sorry if this has been dealt with already, as it must be pretty basic,and 2) I may get the technical jargon wrong because I'm learning about DCC in French, as I live in France, so please be indulgent!
I'm trying to automate a hidden section of track so that a train entering it can be stopped in a siding, thereby triggering the departure of another train which comes out of the same tunnel mouth but in the other direction. The attached diagram should make this clear. Sorry that it's in French, but I got it out of a French magazine. The "zones de coupure" are the portions of track where the current is broken when a train is to be stopped. Four trains can be handled by this set-up. The points at the top stay in whatever position the departing trains leave them, while the points near train T3 are switched automatically to send incoming trains into the siding or let them go straight on. I'm sure this is pretty standard stuff.
Now for my question. In this magazine, a solution using relays is proposed, but my model train supplier tells me that as I have the Roco Z21 (black version) I ought to do it using computer software instead. I'm happy to go down this route as I'm less than useless at all things electrical, and it seems to make sense to get the most out of my Z21. Apparently I also need a Z21 detector to provide feedback on the position of the trains, but then I'm stuck as to how this information is used to tell the trains what to do. It seems I need to install train control software on a PC, but I don't know whether there is a specific software that goes with the Z21 (I haven't been able to find this information on the internet). One such software is iTrain, for which I've downloaded the manual, which seems to get very complicated very quickly. Would this be a good choice? Can I use it to obtain the automated result described above? Any insights would be most welcome!

 

[dwb]

I think you've understood the requirement pretty well.
I tried iTrain on the 30 day evaluation license a few years ago. My memories are:

• You don't need to wire up the points as detection zones, just the track sections which join them.
• iTrain has a calibration process for working out how far a loco will go for a particular speed setting. My memory is that this was quite a large distance. The result is that iTrain can do some train location by a form of 'dead reckoning'.

There are two types of detection

• 'Point' detection where a circuit is completed as the train passes by - eg by a magnet closing a reed switch.
• Current detection where a circuit senses current flowing to power the loco.

Point detection devices and the control box to pass the information back to the DCC control center are cheaper than the current detection types but involve more setting up in placing the switches etc. The current detection type just require you to isolate the sections of track and put one of the feed wires through the detector. Some current detection types can also use RailCom to identify the loco in the section.

I just had a look at Roco's Z21 page and both detectors are currently 'unavailable' probably because of the world wide chip shortage. I waited over 6 months for a Roco switch decoder which finally turned up about a month ago.

Alternative software to iTrain includes 'Train Controller' from Germany.
For a non-commercial alternative there is JMRI. Hopefully someone who knows about it will be along shortly to expand ...

David

 

[kristopher1805]

I have a 4 track main line, 19 loops and use Z21, however just looking at this made me shy away, I wanted it as simple as possible and all these fabulous solutions involve more and more wiring and then the cost of all the equipment, I started to go down the road but in the end went the other way to simplicity, I now use Peco press buttons and before I went Z21 I had cameras in there but these interferred with Z21 so they had to go, I suppose I use the functions sparingly but I can see under there but it's not great to be realistic, I am very interested however how you get on.

http://imgur.com/LaCBxvQ

Looking from the back corner under the village (on a hill to give adequate headroom the scene across the 19 tracks - well many of them, never looks as dark as this but oddly never seem to have crashes in there but the trick is done because I use the Metcalf viaduct as my standard high level on top and this is 132mm (less 12mm for the boards) so at least 2 inches clearance.

 

[Steve1957]

Thanks for your detailed answer, JWB. You are quite right about the unavailability of equipment due to the worldwide shortage of electronic components. Apparently they tried shipping them by sea, but three weeks in a saline/iodine environment did them no good at all! I'm in no hurry, though.So the Z21 detector can be mounted with reed contacts, or as a current sensor: is that correct? And once I've got iTrain or other software set up, I imagine that I have to define an itinerary for the trains that will use the hidden sidings, telling them when and where to stop, for how long, and when to changed the points? Groping towards the light, here!

 

[Steve1957]

I think you've understood the requirement pretty well.
I tried iTrain on the 30 day evaluation license a few years ago. My memories are:

• You don't need to wire up the points as detection zones, just the track sections which join them.
• iTrain has a calibration process for working out how far a loco will go for a particular speed setting. My memory is that this was quite a large distance. The result is that iTrain can do some train location by a form of 'dead reckoning'.

There are two types of detection

• 'Point' detection where a circuit is completed as the train passes by - eg by a magnet closing a reed switch.
• Current detection where a circuit senses current flowing to power the loco.

Point detection devices and the control box to pass the information back to the DCC control center are cheaper than the current detection types but involve more setting up in placing the switches etc. The current detection type just require you to isolate the sections of track and put one of the feed wires through the detector. Some current detection types can also use RailCom to identify the loco in the section.

I just had a look at Roco's Z21 page and both detectors are currently 'unavailable' probably because of the world wide chip shortage. I waited over 6 months for a Roco switch decoder which finally turned up about a month ago.

Alternative software to iTrain includes 'Train Controller' from Germany.
For a non-commercial alternative there is JMRI. Hopefully someone who knows about it will be along shortly to expand ...

David

Thanks for your detailed answer, David. You are quite right about the unavailability of equipment due to the worldwide shortage of electronic components. Apparently they tried shipping them by sea, but three weeks in a saline/iodine environment did them no good at all! I'm in no hurry, though.So the Z21 detector can be mounted with reed contacts, or as a current sensor: is that correct? And once I've got iTrain or other software set up, I imagine that I have to define an itinerary for the trains that will use the hidden sidings, telling them when and where to stop, for how long, and when to changed the points? Groping towards the light, here!

 

[Steve1957]

I have a 4 track main line, 19 loops and use Z21, however just looking at this made me shy away, I wanted it as simple as possible and all these fabulous solutions involve more and more wiring and then the cost of all the equipment, I started to go down the road but in the end went the other way to simplicity, I now use Peco press buttons and before I went Z21 I had cameras in there but these interferred with Z21 so they had to go, I suppose I use the functions sparingly but I can see under there but it's not great to be realistic, I am very interested however how you get on.

Thanks for your input, Kristopher. It is indeed rather daunting, but I'm going to try and get to the bottom of it. I'll post my progress (if any!) on here.

 

[dwb]

My reading of the Roco Z21 detector units specs is that they both use current sensing.
Zubehör - STEUERUNG - PRODUKTE

I thought that Roco might do a version which reads contact switches but I was mistaken. Other manufacturers such as ESU do.

David

 

[dwb]

You can download Z21 manuals from here - Downloads - Anleitungen und Ersatzteile

At least one of the detector manuals has an English language version at the back.

David

 

[alanoes]

I use Z21 with Train Controller. With all the software programs you can set up various "schedules" for running your locos, or just use the "one off " settings like "Autotrain" in my case. For detection of locos I mainly use reed switches, and a bit of current sensing in the turntable area (for obvious reasons of the practicality of fitting reed switches on the turntable track bed), as stated , it takes a bit of setting setting up but, everything does. Its certainly something you can do easily enough (if I can do it anyone can )
Whichever method you choose, you may want to look at the digikeijs 4088 range of detector modules, they do them in R-Bus and Loco Net versions for both reed switch and current sensing (I use R-Bus, so in my case its the 4088RB Opto and 4088RB CS respectively). They are Z21 compatible and have the advantage of giving 16 feedback inputs as opposed to 8 with the Roco units at a cheaper price (although I think Roco do a 16 input version now, which wasn't the case when I was setting up my system, but they are probably quite pricey compared with digikeijs)

This is my main "Switchboard" on Train Controller, each block has 2 reed switches in it. I may have gone a bit over the top in some areas, but my layout currently has about 140 feedback inputs which adds up to a lot of modules so wherever you can make a saving counts
Regards
Alan

 

[Steve1957]

My reading of the Roco Z21 detector units specs is that they both use current sensing.
Zubehör - STEUERUNG - PRODUKTE

I thought that Roco might do a version which reads contact switches but I was mistaken. Other manufacturers such as ESU do.

David

This was the part of the Z21 detector manual that made me think that contact switches was an option - if "contact switch" means the same thing as "dry reed contact". From the manual, it appears to be possible to use either contact switches or current sensing, but I've probably misunderstood.

 

[Steve1957]

I use Z21 with Train Controller. With all the software programs you can set up various "schedules" for running your locos, or just use the "one off " settings like "Autotrain" in my case. For detection of locos I mainly use reed switches, and a bit of current sensing in the turntable area (for obvious reasons of the practicality of fitting reed switches on the turntable track bed), as stated , it takes a bit of setting setting up but, everything does. Its certainly something you can do easily enough (if I can do it anyone can )
Whichever method you choose, you may want to look at the digikeijs 4088 range of detector modules, they do them in R-Bus and Loco Net versions for both reed switch and current sensing (I use R-Bus, so in my case its the 4088RB Opto and 4088RB CS respectively). They are Z21 compatible and have the advantage of giving 16 feedback inputs as opposed to 8 with the Roco units at a cheaper price (although I think Roco do a 16 input version now, which wasn't the case when I was setting up my system, but they are probably quite pricey compared with digikeijs)

View attachment 23269
This is my main "Switchboard" on Train Controller, each block has 2 reed switches in it. I may have gone a bit over the top in some areas, but my layout currently has about 140 feedback inputs which adds up to a lot of modules so wherever you can make a saving counts
Regards
Alan

Many thanks for this input, Alan. Are you saying that with Train Controller and a digikeijs 4088 detector module I wouldn't need the Z21 detector, and the digikeijis would plug into my black Roco Z21 with no problem? I like the idea that I can use this for "one-off" itineraries, in my case having trains come and park up, the arrival of one triggering the departure of another, etc. I wouldn't - at this stage - want to automate the whole layout.
I'll check out Train Controller and maybe get back to you if I have any questions.

 

[dwb]

From the manual, it appears to be possible to use either contact switches or current sensing, but I've probably misunderstood.

I've had a look at the photo you posted and I think you've understood it correctly.
I'd follow Alan's advice as he has actually done what you want to do.

David

 

[alanoes]

This was the part of the Z21 detector manual that made me think that contact switches was an option - if "contact switch" means the same thing as "dry reed contact". From the manual, it appears to be possible to use either contact switches or current sensing, but I've probably misunderstood.

I think you are right about about that Steve, although it looks like you have to introduce a resistor into the line, which wasn't the case with the older Roco 10787 (that I started off with), and certainly isn't the case with the digikeijs 4088 units, which are basically configured as 2 X Roco 10787's
Regards
Alan

 

[dwb]

it looks like you have to introduce a resistor into the line,

Good spot! The resistor is there to create a current, so you get 'spot' detection rather than section. It's probably to show people who want mostly section detection that they can have 'spot' detection as well without having to buy a separate box. If you only want 'spot' detection then the Roco detector is overkill and you're buying a capability you don't need.

David

 

[alanoes]

Many thanks for this input, Alan. Are you saying that with Train Controller and a digikeijs 4088 detector module I wouldn't need the Z21 detector, and the digikeijis would plug into my black Roco Z21 with no problem? I like the idea that I can use this for "one-off" itineraries, in my case having trains come and park up, the arrival of one triggering the departure of another, etc. I wouldn't - at this stage - want to automate the whole layout.
I'll check out Train Controller and maybe get back to you if I have any questions.

Hi Steve,
Yes, the digikeijs units are used instead of the Z21 detector modules and are compatible with the Z21, just plug them in. They have to be "set up" with the Z21 Maintenance Tool (a free download from Roco), but it's not rocket science, and I can always talk you through it if needed. With the Train controller software, the Auto Train options are purely to move one train from A to B, you can obviously move several trains at the same time using this method, but to have one train trigger the movement of another would, I think, have to be set up in a schedule. Check out Rudy's thread on using Train Controller in this DCC section of the forum, that's where I learnt most of my train Controller knowledge
Regards
Alan

 

[alanoes]

Good spot! The resistor is there to create a current, so you get 'spot' detection rather than section. It's probably to show people who want mostly section detection that they can have 'spot' detection as well without having to buy a separate box. If you only want 'spot' detection then the Roco detector is overkill and you're buying a capability you don't need.

David

David, that was exactly my take on it when I wanted to buy some additional Roco 10787's and found they had been superseded with the Z21 detector, which looks to be a great unit but with too much tech in it for what I needed
Alan

 

[Steve1957]

I've had a look at the photo you posted and I think you've understood it correctly.
I'd follow Alan's advice as he has actually done what you want to do.

David

Thanks, David! I'll go down that route.

 

[Steve1957]

Hi Steve,
Yes, the digikeijs units are used instead of the Z21 detector modules and are compatible with the Z21, just plug them in. They have to be "set up" with the Z21 Maintenance Tool (a free download from Roco), but it's not rocket science, and I can always talk you through it if needed. With the Train controller software, the Auto Train options are purely to move one train from A to B, you can obviously move several trains at the same time using this method, but to have one train trigger the movement of another would, I think, have to be set up in a schedule. Check out Rudy's thread on using Train Controller in this DCC section of the forum, that's where I learnt most of my train Controller knowledge
Regards
Alan

Hi Alan,
Is Rudy "Ruud Boer"? From what you say, then, the way to look at it is not so much one train triggers another, but one train arrives in a certain siding at a certain time, stops, and another train leaves a certain siding (potentially the same one, only at the far end of it, provided it is long enough) at a certain time that is later than the arrival time of the first train? In other words, their behaviour is independent of each other, but strictly timed.

 

[alanoes]

Hi Alan,
Is Rudy "Ruud Boer"? From what you say, then, the way to look at it is not so much one train triggers another, but one train arrives in a certain siding at a certain time, stops, and another train leaves a certain siding (potentially the same one, only at the far end of it, provided it is long enough) at a certain time that is later than the arrival time of the first train? In other words, their behaviour is independent of each other, but strictly timed.

Hi Steve,
Yes, Ruud Boer, (who's videos and helpful hints have been a massive help to me regarding the operation of Train Controller, getting your head round the manual is mind blowing, and he has done that all for you)
Anything can be achieved, with train routes, waiting times etc by creating schedules, for another train (schedule) to start (even if its the same train), unless you are running a forward/reverse shuttle, you need to extend the original schedule with, I think they are called, "successors", but once you have your feedback modules working and your layout (or part of it) set up in Train Controller, with the relevant "Blocks", creating the schedules is pretty straight forward, with a little help from Rudy
Regards
Alan

 

[Steve1957]

Hi Steve,
Yes, Ruud Boer, (who's videos and helpful hints have been a massive help to me regarding the operation of Train Controller, getting your head round the manual is mind blowing, and he has done that all for you)
Anything can be achieved, with train routes, waiting times etc by creating schedules, for another train (schedule) to start (even if its the same train), unless you are running a forward/reverse shuttle, you need to extend the original schedule with, I think they are called, "successors", but once you have your feedback modules working and your layout (or part of it) set up in Train Controller, with the relevant "Blocks", creating the schedules is pretty straight forward, with a little help from Rudy
Regards
Alan

Thanks Alan! Hugely helpful, this! I'm sure I'll be back to you later with more questions, but for now I'm rather stuck for lack of equipment: the wordlwide shortage of electronic components and the Peco track that I need stuck in Antwerp (I live in France) , where there has been some drug trafficking, so huge delays for that too!