bachman sound

QUOTE (Tonyperks @ 21 Mar 2008, 19:48) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Not seen this one advertised here in uk?, what are peoples opinions on the hornby elite and dynamis, am not after rocket science, i just play trains!

***Hello Tony - its sold in UK by several of the better suppliers and is way superior in ease of use and features to either the Dynamis or the Elite.

It has nothing to do with rocket science - its also the most instinctive and easiest to use of the 3 brands mentioned despite having a wider feature availability.

It is totally NMRA conformant and is the ONLY one of the three brands that will give you both one button access to fuctions for your sound decoders AND let you read CV's on the programming track....both are important.

Take a look at Bromsgrove models website.

Richard
DCCconcepts

QUOTE and your going to get stuck in the shadowy world of Hornby's version of DCC.

Not sure about the accuracy of this statement - certainly it's true for the Select, but as the Elite has an NMRA conformance warrant and i've certainly not seen any compatibilty issues with it, I don't see how it applies to the Elite.

Looking on the Bromsgrove site it seems that the NCE Powercab comes with a US power supply, so factor that on top of the £92 price - and compare to DCC Supplies £97 for the same unit *including* the UK power supply. I didn't see any info on the Bromsgrove site about where to get the UK power supply from or how much it might cost and i'm sure they'll tell you if you ask, but it's just something to watch out for.

http://www.dccsupplies.com/shop/product_in...products_id=487

QUOTE It is totally NMRA conformant

That's very interesting indeed, I've looked on the NMRA C&I site and I can find an entry from 2005 for NCE Power House Pro (2005-011) is that the same thing?

It looks like a neat little unit. What "language" does its bus talk? Is it a proprietary one for NCE devices or one of the others like Xpressnet?

Is there are computer interface available for it yet? The bromsgrove page says "optional usb" but I haven't yet seen what the device is and the cost or whether that works with the power cab as opposed to the bigger system.

Regards
Matt.

QUOTE (Matthew Peddlesden @ 27 Mar 2008, 01:58) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Not sure about the accuracy of this statement - certainly it's true for the Select, but as the Elite has an NMRA conformance warrant and i've certainly not seen any compatibilty issues with it, I don't see how it applies to the Elite.

Regards
Matt.
I think the statement refers to the overall state and handling of the complete history of the Hornby Digital enterprise rather than any one specific product. The decoders were also an issue which attractes flack as well as the select. While there certainly does seem to be change for the better, some are still very sceptical due to the prior history of Hornby's digital enterprise. My experience of Hornby's decoders was enough to put me off completely. In contrast Bachmann have used decoders (including sound) manufactured by existing DCC specialist companies who have a good reputation in the field and have not experienced these problems that have plagued Hornby. It has been noted that for Hornby's forthcoming sound locos that they will be using ESU sound decoders (as used by Bachmann and most Continental locos) which is welcome news.

QUOTE (Matthew Peddlesden @ 26 Mar 2008, 23:58) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Not sure about the accuracy of this statement - certainly it's true for the Select, but as the Elite has an NMRA conformance warrant and i've certainly not seen any compatibilty issues with it, I don't see how it applies to the Elite.

Looking on the Bromsgrove site it seems that the NCE Powercab comes with a US power supply, so factor that on top of the £92 price - and compare to DCC Supplies £97 for the same unit *including* the UK power supply. I didn't see any info on the Bromsgrove site about where to get the UK power supply from or how much it might cost and i'm sure they'll tell you if you ask, but it's just something to watch out for.

http://www.dccsupplies.com/shop/product_in...products_id=487

That's very interesting indeed, I've looked on the NMRA C&I site and I can find an entry from 2005 for NCE Power House Pro (2005-011) is that the same thing?

It looks like a neat little unit. What "language" does its bus talk? Is it a proprietary one for NCE devices or one of the others like Xpressnet?

Is there are computer interface available for it yet? The bromsgrove page says "optional usb" but I haven't yet seen what the device is and the cost or whether that works with the power cab as opposed to the bigger system.

Regards
Matt.

***Matt, you need to understand the whole history of Hornby DCC to comment. MMAD's comment was fair in the context of the general "hornby experience" which we all sincerely hope will be come better and better as time progresses.... but it has a long way to go.

Fixing the Elite was a really good start! Elite does now have a conformance warrant and I was really pleased to see that as the inital releases were not conformant or compliant... however the Select is still a disaster of a product and the decoders are only now starting to become reasonable - and there are 10,000 or more "faulty" selects out there and only god knows how many very flaky decoders out there (Both so far off NMRA Spec that they aren't even entitled to be called DCC) that hornby still deny are a problem.

As to the decoders, they are a "work in progress" at best.... in fact their last revision isn't due until later in April (I understand it will have a yellow dot on the processor). Hornby chips remain a problem, as does hornbys DCC wiring on occasion...

For example I had a customer only last night who had bought two "chipped" hornby loco's as they were the names and numbers he wanted. He removed the hornby chips as they performed badly and anyway, one had failed within minutes...then discovered when a replacement chip was destroyed that BOTH locos had what were serious shortcomings in the wiring.

So... a Hornby loco that was supposed to be "DCConboard" therefore OK also killed a TCS chip that I ended up having to replace under the goof proof warranty but it was not my customer, myself or TCS who was in the wrong, it was Hornby, who again get a free ride for their carelessness and mistakes. Thats the sort of thing that MMAD meant by "the hornby experience".

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The recommendation: This is not a conformance, feature or any other sort of "peeing up the wall contest". Feature listings are not the point, usability and general "human interface" issues are.

Recommendations should be specific to the questioner, not "do as I do" as one mans preferred controller type will not suit another.

The important fundamental difference between the NCE and the Hornby is in a couple of areas. One is console, the other walk around type. NCE has a very instinctive interface plus direct access to 28 functions via its handset, and is one button access to all importantfunctions: Elite is multi push for functions, which is not really a sound loco compatible approach that most enjoy.

You question the busses: It is no big deal - xpress net is nothing very special compared to NCE's very stable bus format. Lenz's relative position in the world market is anyway clearly in decline. Xpressnet is not a quality or standard reference.

You ask about power supplies: The power supply provided with the NC PowerCab is universal floating voltage. It works in UK or anywhere else as well as it works in USA.

You query the computer interface: the USB adapter is for PowerCab only and works well. It was pre-tested with popular computer software for train control prior to release. The full spec NCE system has had direct system computer interface for a decade.

You query the conformance: NCE PowerCab DCC related electronics are a subset of PowerHouse Pro electronics so also comply... NCE has always complied from day one of its existence. (PowerCab = ProCab + miniaturised base station, the two are operationally identical)

Overall its good to be enthusiastic about the unit you have but you present your post as a "defence" of Elite which was never being attacked in the first place: It is now a much better product than when released, and it is in fact good value for those who want a console type controller.

The comparisons given are based on real world hands on experience of all systems mentioned. Conclusions and recommendation by me to go for the PowerCab are not because Elite is not adequate, but because PowerCab is better for the specific need as stated..

Regards

Richard

DCCconcepts

I saw a Hornby Elite at the weekend, and IMHO it is not a great piece of work.

The guy I was talking too is an electrical engineer (who has a train shop as a sideline) and he is extremely unimpressed with it, but as a Hornby dealer is required to stock it. He is also an ESU dealer as well.

Maybe because of my DCC background (marklin 6021, mobile station, central station, intellibox, ECOS and such like), I have fairly high expectations in terms of functional and ascetic design. The whole unit looks very toy like, not something I would like displayed on my control panel. This whole concept of having to push two buttons to activate a function would annoy me greatly.

I sat in a clinic where there were shots of the wave forms of different chips, the hornby chip was no where near being square, for the sake of the Hornby modellers, I hope that they get this sorted out really fast.

Great news that Hornby are going to use ESU sound chips. Again IMHO the only other comparable chip are the Zimo sound chips.

Richard, you will be pleased to note that my Father in law has finally decided to buy a DCC system for his US outline layout. After walking around all the trade stands with him, I finally convinced him to buy an ECOS. Just kidding, he bought an NCE system. Now I guess I will have to read up on it and help him install it. He is should we say technologically challenged!

John

Richard - woah there boy, I was actually trying to be positive about the NCE and as I know very little about it and information seemed sketchy I was trying to find out more, apologies if that offends you.

My question about busses was to find out whether it would plug in to my existing setup, not because I think one system or another is better, I just happen to have xpressnet here so if it plugged in to that it would make its consideration one step more obvious. I could not find any information about what system it used and hence felt a question could be asked, that is what this forum is for amongst other things.

Power supplies - again i'm just taking the wording from the Bromsgrove site that was recommended earlier, where it specifically states:

QUOTE The set contains a US power supply - it will be necessary to purchase separately a suitable adapter for use in the UK.

From what you're saying, the Bromsgrove site is incorrect and the supplied power supply will work exactly as required?

I query the computer interface because it's important to me, i'm not trying to "pee up walls", I simply won't consider a system that doesn't have a PC interface available for it whether on-board or via additional unit. I have not been able to find mention of this capability, or pricing etc on a vendors site or in the NCE PDF file available from DCC Supplies site - hence, the question. I did not feel it unreasonable.

QUOTE Overall its good to be enthusiastic about the unit you have but you present your post as a "defence" of Elite

Incorrect, sir. My first paragraph/comment in the post was so, but you have then taken this to the rest of the post where it was not so, perhaps this is my fault and if so I apologise.

The Hornby systems were never even mentioned in this thread as far as I can see until the comment that I replied to and I felt a need to add an additional point of view in fairness to other newcomers reading that see nothing but "hornby bad" posts that do not properly qualify the comment.

The Elite gets an (IMHO) unreasonable beating because of the past mistakes - and I do completely agree that the Select and the current decoder are absolutely bloody awful and should be avoided by everyone, no argument from me there at all and something I stress to everyone I speak to. I have been extremely critical at shows of Hornby and their approach initially including directly to Simon Kohler at Hornby. Fact is, they have apparently turned over a new leaf and while it is important not to forget the disasters of the past I also feel it is important not to tarnish the Elite (from 1.2!) or the Sapphire decoder (at least until it's out and has been proven good or bad) with the sins of the past.

However, the majority of my post was genuine questions about the NCE PowerCab since it is frequently mentioned as a popular controller and having had a quick look around I could not find answers to relatively simple questions - hence, I posted them.

We take a DCC Workshop to many model railway exhibitions where we try to educate people in many areas of DCC and obviously controller choice is one of those that comes up. Since I have no experience at all with the NCE kit, is it not reasonable to try to ask someone that obviously knows a lot about the kit?

Lastly, at the risk of once again asking awkward questions, is the API spec for the computer interface available so I can investigate adding support for it to my software?

Regards,
Matt.

QUOTE (Matthew Peddlesden @ 27 Mar 2008, 18:38) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><snipped>

Power supplies - again i'm just taking the wording from the Bromsgrove site that was recommended earlier, where it specifically states:

From what you're saying, the Bromsgrove site is incorrect and the supplied power supply will work exactly as required?

<snipped>

Regards,
Matt.

Without commenting on any of the rest, here, I think I can clarify a bit: both Richard and Bromsgrove are correct. The NCE power supply does indeed work on any voltage supplied in the US. UK and Australia (among others). What Bromsgrove models are saying is that you will need an international adaptor to actually plug it in to a UK standard power point, as the pins are differently shaped and spaced.

QUOTE (Matthew Peddlesden @ 27 Mar 2008, 18:21) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hmm, does anyone actually sell the USB interface in the UK?

Thanks
Matt.

Hi Matt

its only just being delivered as it was awaiting the full blessing of JMRI developers before shipping - it will certainly be available from all NCE stockists very soon if its not already there.

Talk to John at Bromsgrove - I am sure he'd be keen to see your software initiative go further (as I am) and he may be able to Persuade Jim Scorse (Owner of NCE) to supply the PowerHouse Pro for use with your soft6ware initiative.

Jim Scorse certainly does positively encourage such things, and if you can get to him he'll be of great help providing whatever data you might need for interfacing to NCE.

I'd help directly but it seems a long diversion to do it by way of Perth AU!

Richard
DCCconcepts

QUOTE (Matthew Peddlesden @ 27 Mar 2008, 16:38) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Richard - woah there boy, I was actually trying to be positive about the NCE and as I know very little about it and information seemed sketchy I was trying to find out more, apologies if that offends you.

Snip

However, the majority of my post was genuine questions about the NCE PowerCab since it is frequently mentioned as a popular controller and having had a quick look around I could not find answers to relatively simple questions - hence, I posted them.

We take a DCC Workshop to many model railway exhibitions where we try to educate people in many areas of DCC and obviously controller choice is one of those that comes up. Since I have no experience at all with the NCE kit, is it not reasonable to try to ask someone that obviously knows a lot about the kit?

Lastly, at the risk of once again asking awkward questions, is the API spec for the computer interface available so I can investigate adding support for it to my software?

Regards,
Matt.

***Hi Matt

words don't always communicate well do they... we both probably said what we meant but didn't mean it the way it was read

I'm actually VERY supportive of your initiative and am also perhaps more aware of your UK efforts than you might think as I am active in te backgound in many areas of DCC - I am one of those who wouldn't let sleeping dogs lie when it came to H's initial problems and am VERY, very pleased they've taken a change of heart in relation to NMRA compliance.

Still want them to look after all those poor select and H decoder owners though....

If you'd like to email me directly to rejohnson at dccconcepts dot com I can send you a background technical manual that might get you started

Richard
DCCconcepts