[Oakydoke]

Due to speculation on various web forums, Bachmann have clarified the type of decoder to be factory fitted to forthcoming releases.

The recently announced 3 function decoder with Back EMF (2 digit addressing only) is indeed the fitted item!

 

[Makemineadouble]

It's a throw away item IMHO. All of you who clammered for factory fitted decoders, will be buying inferior products. I personally will not be buying any Bachmann product with a decoder fitted, until they change the specification. I demand four digit addressing, and as they won't be fitting such decoders, I'll fit my own.

 

[hoonsou]

I thought this is what would happen. I'm with MMAD on this. I said on RMWeb that you could end up with a decoder that you didn't want. I know you'll still be able to (we hope), buy a loco' without a decoder, but why not put a half decent one in, in the first place

 

[Dennis David]

If it comes with standard connector then at the price mentioned it may be worth it as a throwaway in any case.

 

[Oakydoke]

I also agree.
Graham Plowman (gppsoftware) is "sounding off" about this elsewhere.

The best course of action is "consumer power", but how many will buy them regardless?

I would have thought DCC fitted loco's would be the "flagship" of the range.
2 digit addressing and only 3 functions hardly signals that!

The best hope is that Hornby will clearly out do that when they launch their own fitted loco's (maybe 2007?).
Competition is the best "kick up the backside"

Now let's see, Individually operating tail-lights, remote switching between daylight and night time running lights, proper working fan (ie. when stationary too), remote coupling/uncoupling......

 

[Dennis David]

Working fan sounds cool

Does anybody really do that?

 

[Ryan]

I will buy that class 66, I'm a beginner, so I'll need to begin easy.

Maybe later I will buy another Class 66, but than I'll fit a SWD decoder myself. (or I'll ask my local shop to fit it for me

)

The only inportant thing for me is; it must work with the Roco LocMause 2, with 4 function keys.

 

[Gary]

Those who operate DCC with the Bachmann EZ-Command control unit will appreciate being able to purchase a loco with a chip already fitted. It keeps things very simple.

Bachmann have a sizable EZ-Command user base in the UK as their DCC sets have been very successful. In fact there are very probably more folk using EZ-Command than any other DCC system right now! Lets not knock the "keep it simple and cheap approach" taken by Bachmann as it has converted large numbers to DCC.

The price difference between a chipped and standard loco is between £9 and £12 depending on the model and for the average UK modeller operating a few locos at a time on their DCC layout this is something of a bargain. The 4 digit argument does not wash with the new breed of budget DCC operators and it is easier to remember 2 digits!

Have we all forgotten that one of the big barriers to entry into the DCC world for nearly all modellers was the cost of chipping a collection. This is no longer an issue with budget chips being "as cheap as chips"!

Chips that are removed for any reason can be sold on so they are not redundant.

The locomotives with chips fitted no doubt will be produced in limited numbers so they are likely to be the more collectable in years to come and hold their residual values better. This should not be overlooked by collectors.

One final thought.

Is the typical buyer of a Bachmann off the shelf loco with a chip fitted the sort of technically gifted modeller who is going to fit additional DCC accessories within the loco when they don't want to remove the body in the first place?

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Makemineadouble]

Poor logic, I buy a loco DCC ready with a decoder, I have to remove it, fit my own decoder, then sell on the Bachmann or Hornby badged Lenz decoder on for peanuts...........no way.

I want a quality decoder with 4 digit addressing, and a full range of CV's. What chance then for Bachmann loco's with sound. ? "great for trainsets but not for me in this format"

Yes Bachmann have improved there products, but were talking about a new range of products here.
As I said IMHO it's not the product I want, I would prefer to buy my own decoder and do my own thing. Ryan this applies to you as well, even if your learning DCC, which is really simple.
I'm also dismayed by talk that Hornby's DCC system will not support 4 Digit addressing or a full range of DCC functions.
The message to both manufactures is either do DCC properly or leave to the specialists in the field. Non standard DCC (IE does not fully conform to NMRA standards- such as they are) is condeming the purchasers to a tied arrangement, buy my loco's, buy my system. It sounds like a really poor decision, and ranks along side live steam.
We could be watching a wonderful opportunity missed by poor management decisions, and lack of long term vision, for short term gain.
I had in mind to buy a Hornby Elite just for my study shunting plank, but now I've decided it will be a Digitrax Zephur, just a few pennies more, but more verstile, more amps, and fitting in nicely with my existing Digitrax equipment. Proven, and NMRA compliant.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE (Dennis David @ 7 Sep 2006, 07:28) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Working fan sounds cool

Does anybody really do that?
My Hornby class 31 does that but only when in motion. I believe the class 50 may also do this.

The irony of Bachmann using a shit decoder in their UK product must be a reflection on how they precieve the UK DCC market. The reason I say this is that they use ESU Lokpilot decoders in their Lilliput stuff and they are pretty good decoders. Same company why the difference?

 

[hoonsou]

QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 7 Sep 2006, 08:42) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>My Hornby class 31 does that but only when in motion. I believe the class 50 may also do this.
The irony of Bachmann using a shit decoder in their UK product must be a reflection on how they precieve the UK DCC market. The reason I say this is that they use ESU Lokpilot decoders in their Lilliput stuff and they are pretty good decoders. Same company why the difference?

I wonder too.

 

[Dennis David]

I wonder not. The price point that British modelers seem to require basically gives them what the deserve. In the US the DCC version is usually $100 over the DC version. You pay shit you get shit.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE (Dennis David @ 7 Sep 2006, 15:44) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I wonder not. The price point that British modelers seem to require basically gives them what the deserve. In the US the DCC version is usually $100 over the DC version. You pay shit you get shit.
You tell em Dennis

 

[Dennis David]

The truth sometimes hurts.

 

[Brian Considine]

Lets face it - Hornby & Bachmann know their markets, are in business to make money and do so.

At the end of the day we (as "serious" DCC'ers) are almost certainly in the minority as far as buyers go & therefore sales. As Dennis says "I wonder not. The price point that British modelers seem to require basically gives them what the deserve. In the US the DCC version is usually $100 over the DC version. You pay shit you get shit."

best regards
Brian

 

[Oakydoke]

QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 6 Sep 2006, 23:25) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Non standard DCC (IE does not fully conform to NMRA standards- such as they are) is condeming the purchasers to a tied arrangement...

... I had in mind to buy a Hornby Elite just for my study shunting plank, but now I've decided it will be a Digitrax Zephur, .... and fitting in nicely with my existing Digitrax equipment.
Ermm! Digitrax, isn't that going for the "tied arrangement"?

 

[Oakydoke]

QUOTE (Gary @ 6 Sep 2006, 22:37) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Bachmann have a sizable EZ-Command user base in the UK as their DCC sets have been very successful. In fact there are very probably more folk using EZ-Command than any other DCC system right now!Although Bachmann have sold a lot of EZ-Command units in the UK, I doubt these are in the majority. Their sales of Train-sets are only a small fraction of Hornby's sales here, and many adult modellers would have heard or read the advice given by others and opted for a more capable "budget" system.
Soon, Hornby sales of DCC will completely overshadow every other make in the UK market.

QUOTE (Gary @ 6 Sep 2006, 22:37) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The 4 digit argument does not wash with the new breed of budget DCC operators and it is easier to remember 2 digits!The "new breed" as you put it, will not have to remember 2 or 4 digits. The newer systems are coming with Alpha-numeric capability, where you can write your own name for each loco.

QUOTE (Gary @ 6 Sep 2006, 22:37) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The locomotives with chips fitted no doubt will be produced in limited numbers so they are likely to be the more collectable in years to come and hold their residual values better.Logically they should be more valuable anyway, regardless of collectability. They come better equipped than the non-DCC fitted version!

 

[Gary]

I was at the Warley Model Railway Club this week and the concensus was that the British railway modeller broadly does not need DCC as Brit layouts at home generally are small. There are hardly any British exhibition layouts operating with DCC according to the boys at Warley.

The Brits are not interested in the operational side of things like the Americans. The Brits are seriously interested in subjects that invoke memories of "how it was" and as a result we are considered to be the best modellers in the world and that is where our main interest lies as a nation. Hence we have the largest percentage of scratchbuilders as a nation. We have the richest heritage of modelling subjects in the whole world and we enjoy taking advantage of this.

Only a very very small minority of British modellers are prepared to invest big money into DCC it would seem.

Only if the outlay is similar to that required for a top end analogue control system will the great masses of British modellers (who, lets be honest about it, don't right now visit online forums) consider DCC.

Hornby and Bachmann get feedback from tens of thousands of "ordinary" modellers every year.

If the moves Hornby and Bachmann are making at the budget end is what is required to get the British (and European?) modelling masses involved with DCC then lets all welcome this!

Lets not talk of purchases of Hornby and Bachmann product being a false economy. For 99% of modellers who invest in these systems they will be the only systems they ever need!

Happy modelling
Gary

PS I don't use the word "ordinary" in the context of meaning "average". I use the word in the context of those who don't right now visit forums.

 

[Oakydoke]

QUOTE (Gary @ 7 Sep 2006, 09:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I was at the Warley Model Railway Club this week and the concensus was that the British railway modeller broadly does not need DCC as Brit layouts at home generally are small. There are hardly any British exhibition layouts operating with DCC according to the boys at Warley.Was this then followed by repeated loud chanting of "CLIVE GREEDUS......CLIVE GREEDUS....CLIVE GREEDUS......" ????

QUOTE (Gary @ 7 Sep 2006, 09:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Only a very very small minority of British modellers are prepared to invest big money into DCC it would seem.

Only if the outlay is similar to that required for a top end analogue control system will the great masses of British modellers (who, lets be honest about it, don't right now visit online forums) consider DCC.
Well that's all going to change, prices are tumbling and DCC is about to go mass market.

QUOTE (Gary @ 7 Sep 2006, 09:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hornby and Bachmann get feedback from tens of thousands of "ordinary" modellers every year.

Hornby and Bachmann know what they need to do!

Agree, these manufacturers don't invest loads of money and energy without looking at the potential market and assessing the risks.
They are going DCC because that's where the model and toy train markets are heading.
Frankly, as "toys", model trains have fallen from favour and the product needs freshening up to attract new custom.

There will be a very large proportion of older modellers who will never switch and they probably don't need to, but increasing numbers of new entrants will choose DCC when they see what is available to them
In a few years most train-sets will end up as DCC, and every Hornby dealer will have Select and Elite systems for sale.
The new entrants will have DCC before they even hear of Peco, Gaugemaster, EM gauge or DJH etc.

It may be a case of the Warley "boys" understanding the traditional model railway club scene, but not understanding the RTR model railway market.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE I was at the Warley Model Railway Club this week and the concensus was that the British railway modeller broadly does not need DCC as Brit layouts at home generally are small. There are hardly any British exhibition layouts operating with DCC according to the boys at Warley.

The Brits are not interested in the operational side of things like the Americans. The Brits are seriously interested in subjects that invoke memories of "how it was" and as a result we are considered to be the best modellers in the world and that is where our main interest lies as a nation. Hence we have the largest percentage of scratchbuilders as a nation. We have the richest heritage of modelling subjects in the whole world and we enjoy taking advantage of this.

Only a very very small minority of British modellers are prepared to invest big money into DCC it would seem.

How true and also sad that is. We do make some of the best model layouts yet at the same time we get stuck in nostalgia and forget to modernise.

This is exactly why I started modelling German outline. So I can run 21 century model trains rather than ones from the 60's.