[Dennis David]

Bachmann needs to understand the difference between website based publications and moderated forums and it seems they do not. These might originate from the same website but they perform different functions. A news item must be approved before it can be published. A forum on the other hand is always a messy thing but that being said nothing cuts through the BS of PR fluff, shoddy products, or unrealized deliveries faster. The Politically Correct hobby magazines with their toothless reviews are all fine and well but it is us here on the Internet that live and breath these expensive toys. When somebody goes over the top they should be admonished but I don't think it is necessary or warranted for us to do a lot of finger pointing or soul searching. I certainly will not lose any sleep over it. Am I going to hold a shorter leash as a moderator, I doubt it.

If Bachmann finds certain comments libelous then there are legal remedies but withdrawing their "support" from an entire segment of the media is in my opinion short sighted and ultimately self-defeating.

 

[Andy Y]

I would like to take the opportunity to expand on a couple of points made above:

I was incorrect in stating that the issue of 57011's livery discrepancies was first discussed on MRE, the issue was first noted on rmweb on 05 August. The problem was first identified on 16 August on MRE but a response from Bachmann on MRE triggered an upsurge in discussions on rmweb and elsewhere. The issue was ultimately resolved when Denis Lovett apologised on MRE for Bachmann having been incorrect on the 23 August. The silly thing is it was such a trivial error but some contributors felt compelled to rebutt the statements made on the 16 August on MRE that Bachmann were right and that the original questioner was wrong.

Comments made by two contributors were unecessarily inflammatory, both were removed as soon as they were observed. One of those contributors has apologised directly to me and publicly. The other contributor is believed to be a staff writer for a printed publication, I have sought to protect anonymity for a number of contributors who are known names within the hobby who have made measured and valuable contributions - it is undoubtedly a shame when this is abused by one person. I have acted appropriately to isolate this problem.

No accusation of libel has been made by any manufacturer to us, it was a matter of self-policing before anything escalated beyond the two statements. I addressed 'libellous statements' head on and publicly on the forum so that our standpoint is clear.

The vast majority of members of all forums behave responsibly and purely wish to benefit from forums, long may the development of respective forums continue. As in all walks of life a minority sometimes overstep the mark.

I respect Bachmann's right to act in a manner they see as protecting their business interests but would ask them to properly consider their relationship with the online community.

I'm purely trying to put a degree of perspective into the issue so that readers may have a more informed opinion of matters. I care little whether press releases are sent directly or not, manufacturers could benefit to a much greater degree with more extensive involvement with forums than just that. It is entirely up to the manufacturer whether they work with a resource that has been happy to work with them.

 

[spongebob]

Didn't pull out of the paper medium after the stick they got from rail express though did they? Admittedly they did threaten legal action if one review was published but nothing more. Sad but typical of the attitude of that particular manufacturer and as usual everyone starts pointing the finger of blame. They've clearly reached the point where they think stuff 'em (bachmann that is) I'm sure there are more than enough who have the same attitude towards bachmann. Question is who will they listen to?
SLing as much mud over whodunnit as you want its a bit too late now and shows just how petty the whole forum set up is.

 

[Makemineadouble]

QUOTE I'm purely trying to put a degree of perspective into the issue so that readers may have a more informed opinion of matters. I care little whether press releases are sent directly or not, manufacturers could benefit to a much greater degree with more extensive involvement with forums than just that. It is entirely up to the manufacturer whether they work with a resource that has been happy to work with them.

I would like to make the point that prior to this flare-up we had a similar problem on the news group
UK.REC.MODELS.RAIL I recall this involved the nose section of the then new class 40. Bachmann did revise this portion of the model. In this instance the agitators were proven to be correct, their actions did lead to an improved model. Consultation and involvement is a far better approach from both sides. Is this the function of magazines ?,not anymore times are changing. Internet feedback is almost instantaneous, it's one of it's great strengths, and sometimes weakness. Manufacturers need to be cognizant of the new order, and to perhaps not react in a manner that offends potential purchasers of their product.

What do I mean:
consultation - what models would you the modeller like to see produced, and this results in feed back and hence involvement. When things are wrong, individuals have the right be critical on forums. This partly is the function of a forum. If critisum is incorrect normally the weight of responce will drown out the poster. This is what internet freedom is all about. I think Bachmann handled this example poorly, but then that's my oppinion.

I do enjoy both forums, and yes they are both quite different. If manufacturers believe they can develop their market without modellers, they may find themselves producing models that the public don't buy in ecconomic quanties. In practice the common sence approach of informal consultation is probably best for both parties.
May common sence prevail.

 

[37197]

QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 27 Aug 2006, 13:08) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I do enjoy both forums, and yes they are both quite different. If manufacturers believe they can develop their market without modellers, they may find themselves producing models that the public don't buy in ecconomic quanties. In practice the common sence approach of informal consultation is probably best for both parties.
May common sence prevail.

Hear hear, I use both forums and IMO Bachmann really dug themselves into a hole on this one, they could of consulted the buying public with images of a potential release before production and these errors would have been picked up or ideally they could have done a little more research and found that 57002,003,005,006 or 009 would have been more suitable candidates (the same tank arrangement as 008)

.

I feel it's a little sad when supposedly grown adults start pointing the finger for blame or slate members from another forum, we are all entitled to our own personal opinions and if your not happy with something then you should be allowed to voice that opinion within reason

.

 

[Gary]

Thinking about all this does anybody know exactly what support Bachmann actually gave the online community?

In terms of news (free publicity) they would circulate files by email so all they need to do is remove a few email addresses from their mailing list. The Bachmann workload does not change.

And they made observations and would respond where they considered it to be appropriate (again by email presumably?). They might argue that this gives a website credibility and that we should doff our station masters caps in gratitude. However any model manufacturer worth their salt should monitor the relevant online communities and react when it is appropriate. Even if its just an invite to contact the model company directly. Bachmann will no longer do this!

And Bachmann issued an annual New Year press pack upon request at the London Toy Fair providing free publicity when the information was published but also forcing the authors of any online report to give up a lot of free time as their info was not that web friendly and had to be formatted.

Bachmann don't actually part with any cash or sponsor any site or provide review samples or competition prizes to any member of the online community as far as I am aware.

Hornby do!

To be blunt is it such a big deal?

So it seems its very much their loss and probably Hornby's gain!

What do you say folks?

A total Bachmann PR disaster?

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Dennis David]

QUOTE Thinking about all this does anybody know exactly what support Bachmann actually gave the online community?

I haven't seen any.

I have a mind never to buy any Bachmann products ever again ... except for the fact that I have never bought one of their products in the first place.

 

[Garry D100]

My reaction to all this is do we really care if Bachmann has spat its dummy out.

What support was there before, a few dribbles of information every now and then on what they are planning to release. Then you have to wait for the next ice age to arrive before the new releases.

Get a grip Bachmann and grow up !!

 

[spongebob]

Did I just hear a rather large collective penny drop then?
It seems to me that they are trying to do a job of deflecting blame or should it be responsibility onto someone else for yet more basic production errors and shall we say factual dicrepancies (Hmm that sounds good I'll have to use it again). If it was their intention to set the internet forums against each other then I suppose for a few days it may have worked. They could've put the logo issue down to a factory cock up yet again as with their collectors centre loco which was supposed to be a 50/50 split between weathered and pristine but which came out all weathered. It would've worked far better than to deny any error at all, hell it may even have been believable.
It does seem to be the culmination of a long standing line of grief against the company rather than one incident. Does it mean they won't bother keeping tabs on what is said? I very much doubt it.

 

[Pennine MC]

QUOTE (spongebob @ 27 Aug 2006, 22:25) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>... Does (this issue) mean they (Bachmann) won't bother keeping tabs on what is said? I very much doubt it.
So do I, Sponge. They said on RMweb that they monitor websites, and if a future model gets a particularly large amount of criticism, they'll maybe make improvements to it quietly (as they did with the original 37s). But I also doubt they'll give us the satisfaction of knowing that we've had any influence on the matter.

 

[dwilson9]

What Bachmann thinks of its customers is pretty important. If they start ignoring web based publishers/forums they will cut themselves off from an active and usually free spending part of their customer base. I must admit I get tired of those who carp on at manufacturers doing their best to make better products, but accept that without criticism they won't improve - a lesson all manufacturers learn the hard way. Model Rail's and BRM's printed reviews strike me as pretty good and balanced. No business is perfect - certainly not the one I work for, nor most peoples - and whilst I wouldn't want sites to offer slavish support the criticism should be constructive. There seems to be an increasing army of armchair modellers (if they are indeed modellers) who just want everything right for them straight out of the box and who aren't prepared to lift a finger to right minor wrongs themselves!! They should have been modelling 30 years ago ...!

 

[60134]

Rather belatedly I am catching up on this thread. If Bachmann are serious then they are making a grave error. The growth of fora such as MRF and others mirrors the growth in internet retailing. Some UK manufacturers seem to be unable to grasp the potential of the web and realise the opportunities it presents (and some will not deal with internet based traders!).

Bachmann have appeared to be increasingly "pro-active" in this medium in recent times and it would be an enormous pity if some localised mud-slinging has caused them to re-think. Naturally manufacturers would like to control media response to their products and to some degree can influence editors but an open forum on the internet will always examine their wares with a critical eye even if they withdraw their support - the cynical among us might worry that this would encourage negative feedback.

My sincere hope is that they are as open minded as the likes of Simon Kohler who seems to have taken Hornby into the 21st century and embraced the 'net, warts and all......

60134

 

[pedromorgan]

I have just got back from china and this is staggering.
its not a supprise. RMweb has always been a bun fight.

but it would have been nice to have seen it go to court rather than have this happen.

All forums do get a little heated sometimes (this one included) but i am very glad that we have a forum that can usually have a civilised debate on a wide range of subjects.

My complements to the modorators.

Peter

 

[pedromorgan]

RM web has been closed.

I have started a thread in the OO/HO section to discuss this.

Peter

 

[Gary]

QUOTE All forums do get a little heated sometimes (this one included) but i am very glad that we have a forum that can usually have a civilised debate on a wide range of subjects.

I think the mods at MRF lean towards keeping things on topic and are not overkeen on waffle and idle chit chit loosely termed as banter as this makes moderating life more complicated than it need be. Ok, MRF may be seen by some as a little bit on the serious side as a result however this reduces the risks of offending any visitor who may be looking in.

Happy modelling
Gary

PS Just out of interest Pedro how did your trip to China go? Is it worth a seperate thread or was it not eventful from a railway point of view?

 

[pedromorgan]

It wasnt really of interest from a railway point of view. i went to beijing railway museum again. (it a real shame to see such a new and important museum decending into disrepair) but apart from that it was really a visiting my girlfreind visit.
I can pop up a few pictures if you like.

Peter

 

[Doug]

QUOTE (pedromorgan @ 29 Aug 2006, 13:36) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>RM web has been closed.

I have started a thread in the OO/HO section to discuss this.

Peter

I shut that thread now as nothing there seems to have changed and there is no point in multiple threads on one issue.

Also:
I have contacted Bachmann today by phone to chat about the little problem, but nobody is available to comment this week as they are on holiday.

I'll get back to them next week. I have sent an email outlining our position and our collective feelings.

 

[Dennis David]

I'm all for contacting Bachmann and explaining our position but if that means censoring comments or opinions on this forum that may upset them ... well you'll have to do that one without me.

 

[Pennine MC]

QUOTE (pedromorgan @ 29 Aug 2006, 12:36) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>RM web has been closed.

I realise I could well be missing something here, but can somebody clarify what this comment actually means, please?

 

[37114]

The thing that strikes me about this sorry saga is the way what is effectively a storm in a tea cup has blown up to such massive proportions. 5 Years ago Lima were producing stuff like class 37's with no horns or wrong cantrail grilles for the refurbed 37's. The press used to pass comment that it was wrong but it was never a big deal, but the comments were generally constructed in an inflamitory manner. 5 years on we are complaing about a small printed decal on what is otherwaise a pretty spot on model. Some of the people who are perpetually having a go at Bachmann now were no doubt the same people welcoming them with open arms not too long ago because of the improvements compared to Lima stuff.

The internet Forums such as these have given joe public the opportunity to speak their views and thus make it easier for Manufacturers to get feedback, but unfortunately it also allows people to speak before thinking. As a moderator on a different forum, my experience is very much that if somebody posts something controversial there are other members who will act like sheep and follow suit. By careful moderation and deleting posts as quick as they appear the forum tends to run a lot more smoothly.

I for one find Internet forums a very useful source of knowledge and information from Modellers all over the world, and my modelling is better for it by being a member of DEMU forum and RM web. It would be a shame if Andy Y were ever to decide to wind up the forum because of the hassle going on at present, when you look beyond the recent press, there are some very experienced and knowlegdeable modellers on there willing to share that knowledge.