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Hi folks,
Just curious.......has anybody seen/heard anything of Bachmanns Sound chipped Deltic yet ?
I've seen the usual adverts from various online outlets, though haven't seen any reports or even a Youtube vid yet


BFN.. Meldforever
Crewe
 

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QUOTE (Meldforever @ 20 Jan 2008, 11:20) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi folks,
Just curious.......has anybody seen/heard anything of Bachmanns Sound chipped Deltic yet ?
I've seen the usual adverts from various online outlets, though haven't seen any reports or even a Youtube vid yet


BFN.. Meldforever
Crewe

I emailed bachmann about this. I was told March - but that was March 2007 so we still wait.
 

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QUOTE (Meldforever @ 20 Jan 2008, 11:20) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi folks,
Just curious.......has anybody seen/heard anything of Bachmanns Sound chipped Deltic yet ?
I've seen the usual adverts from various online outlets, though haven't seen any reports or even a Youtube vid yet


BFN.. Meldforever
Crewe

I suspect the deley is due to the 1 speaker set up bachman use. Suspect the chassis needs re-doing before we hear sound deltics.
 

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I believe the reason for the delay may be due to the difficulty in repoducing the deltic's low end base sounds. I know a few people who are very skilled in this area but cannot reporuce anything that sounds like a deltic due to the frequency response of the small speakers. It will be interesting to see how B solve this.

Rob
 

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QUOTE (80class @ 23 Jan 2008, 09:20) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I believe the reason for the delay may be due to the difficulty in repoducing the deltic's low end base sounds. I know a few people who are very skilled in this area but cannot reporuce anything that sounds like a deltic due to the frequency response of the small speakers. It will be interesting to see how B solve this.

Rob

New speakers
 

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QUOTE (Piemanlarger @ 23 Jan 2008, 09:52) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>New speakers


Yes and no! In that a new speaker will be required, but its not a simple matter of changing suppliers. It appears that a speaker with the required base response to reproduce deltic sounds does not yet exist in a small enough package. Even the wonderful base reflex speakers don't cut it. Currently I have heard two deltic projects. Both sounded great played through a hifi speaker set up but noting like a deltic through various small speakers.

Its one to watch to see how its solved.

Rob
 

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QUOTE (80class @ 23 Jan 2008, 11:04) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yes and no! In that a new speaker will be required, but its not a simple matter of changing suppliers. It appears that a speaker with the required base response to reproduce deltic sounds does not yet exist in a small enough package. Even the wonderful base reflex speakers don't cut it. Currently I have heard two deltic projects. Both sounded great played through a hifi speaker set up but noting like a deltic through various small speakers.

Its one to watch to see how its solved.

Rob

So something better than the base relex must be in development
 

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QUOTE (Piemanlarger @ 23 Jan 2008, 20:07) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So something better than the base relex must be in development


***New speakers - you are an optimist :) :)

It'll be interesting. don't hold your breath...... I'd just be happy its been made and live with the way it'll be delivered....
It looks to be really nicely done, and I will make a rare exception to my generally diseasel free layout and buy one as it had some early test runs on the Settle and Carlisle.... (I'll have to do a back to the future though - my layouts set in the '30's... but then it still hasn't changed up there, has it!!!)

BUT - Don't look for anything other than the character of the sound - the energy won't be there - ever!

Big Bass isn't at all easy - I have a history in full size audio design / development, do hundreds of sound installs a year and I'd say its 100% physically impossible to get "real diesel bass energy" inside a 4mm scale powered loco.

Not easy in bigger ones either - I just did a large scale Aristocraft SD45 and Dash 9 loco - they sound truly great and are identifyable sound wise as what they are - but big loco sound is FELT more than its heard - and thats still not there!

It can sound GOOD, very good sometimes, but it will never have the high energy you are talking about...

Why?

If U build a 100 watt hi-fi speaker it'll have a 100 watt woofer, a 10~15 watt midrange and a 1~3 watt tweeter (appx). This is because the energy to reproduce bass sound is way, way more than to reproduce mid and high sounds. (The crossover takes care of splitting up the sound so bass notes don't fry tweeters etc...)

No matter how good the speakers will be, a cone of such small surface area will NEVER reproduce bass frequencies in any form of balance with the higher frequencies - the efficiencies are just too different.

eg to stay in balance and deliver real bass.... the total output power of a loksopund 3.5 is appx 1 watt

... to get the other frequencies loud enough to do what U say and keep bass in balance will need both higher power (5 would be nice, but OK at about 3 or more possibly) for the bass frequencies and say 1/2 watt for the lower mid to mid and 1/5 watt for upper mid and highs.

this will also need a slow roll off or the low end of the speaker - which means a perfectly sealed enclosure not a bass reflex, which rolls off very sharply. Little speakers do well to even start to reproduce 300hz which is really only low midrange - real bass starts for me at 150 and goes down from there!!

AND - the existing 8 bit sound cannot cover the bass extension either..... its bandwidth is actually quite narrow.

So..... as I said, with sound decoders in their current form, don't hold your breath. Especially if B do their usual and fill the body with metal so it'll pull well. A milling machine is needed if thats the case....

We have to fool the ear by gaining everything we can....

The practical solution is still not a walk in the park:

Use more than one speaker with them configured in phase - and in parralel.

Use identical speakers in a series/parrralel array with an imedance of not less than 50 ohms rather than one small, one big. More cone area = important!

BOTH the original Loksound (if placed in its enclosure and perfectly sealed - including the wire slots) and the DCCsupplies bass reflex speakers are both very good but speakers are only part of the equation.

It will need a sound file recorded at a good energy level and kept as close to clipping as possible which is then severely equalised and it may also need to be slightly phase shifted to preserve the lower end of the audio when its taken from whatever to 8 bit audio....

It will need several speakers and the loksound run at 50 ohms, not 100. Personally I always use a sealed box as its bass extension is better IF you can effectively couple the speakers to the body and create a true sealed enclosure... but the DCC supplies will be better if precision isn't possible.

It will need the volume set to about 90% not 100% (it'll sound cleaner - the top ten percent is mainly distrotion, heat and wasted energy anyway.

and a lot of good luck - technique and skill are a big bit of it, but luck happens too - some installs just work really well!!

sometimes simple things help too - if the top end is limited on purpose by masking it, the bass sounds louder - relatively speaking!

Richard

PS: don't let the above stop U trying - as my second-to-last line said - good sound is part science, part magic and part luck
 

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Personally I am more than happy to have a regular audio set up with a sound stage congruent with the model railway, and to play samples of the real thing roughly corresponding to the traffic moving on the layout. It is what we are used to in real life, vision is direct 'line of sight'; sound comes to us by direct and indirect paths - we are accustomed to some incongruence - the brain knits any reasonably congruent vision and sound inputs together. Perhaps for those who must have sound on board small locos, someone with Richard's background could offer a below layout bass woofer(s) and some nifty software to supply a signal to match the traffic on view on the layout?
 

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Thanks for elaborating the reasons behind the difficulty Richard.

From my experience the hard part is perception. Clearly no model will have the same sound energy as the real thing. What you are doing is trying to fool the listener into thinking its hearing the real thing. This becomes much harder the more bass is involved. With small speakers being totally incapable of reproducing small bass, fooling the listener becomes very complicated.

Still, I look forward to the SWD Bachmann chip, as to date I have been impressed with most of what SWD have achieved.

Rob
 

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QUOTE (34C @ 23 Jan 2008, 22:25) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Personally I am more than happy to have a regular audio set up with a sound stage congruent with the model railway, and to play samples of the real thing roughly corresponding to the traffic moving on the layout. It is what we are used to in real life, vision is direct 'line of sight'; sound comes to us by direct and indirect paths - we are accustomed to some incongruence - the brain knits any reasonably congruent vision and sound inputs together. Perhaps for those who must have sound on board small locos, someone with Richard's background could offer a below layout bass woofer(s) and some nifty software to supply a signal to match the traffic on view on the layout?

*** simple enhancement isn't so hard - you could actually connect a 100 ohm ESU sound decoder to the RCA input of your computer sound card (try setting voume at about 30 to start). Plug in a reasonable computer speaker set and for a depot area etc it would do nicely. You'd need a motor connected the the decoder with a bit of a load on it to get the backEMF effects to any degree....

Its not all that easy when trying to sync to train presence though... and sometimes, its harder than others!!

- I've been twisting my brain for a long while to get the sound to have a good environmental effect - steam loco exiting Blea moor tunnel - changes sound as it travells thru the cut and changes again as it reaches the box/flatter land before the viaduct... Exit Blea Moor area and then the sharp change in characteristic as it hits Ribblehead...

A mix of eclectic and exxy hardware, detectors, god knows how much software work and a lot of thought... Unfortunately there's a lot of expense, as not only does the sound have to mirror the loco, echo and reverb and equalisation and phase need to shift to create the differences automatically, proportionally & progressively as the train moves along....

Its a project simply to see if I can do it - even if I fail, I'll have learned a lot - and if I succeed, I'll be somewhat happy and a bit surprised :) :).

BUT - no matter what, diesels are felt more than heard at a med distance - their "presence" is largely the world vibrating in sympathy.... so its VERY hard to reproduce that as U stand by the layout without some excellent subs & several tens of watts at least....

And it'll drive the household mad if U succeed :)

Richard
 

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During my visit to Warley last month I first went to Bachmann's stand to look at the NRM Deltic - very nice, fortunately I am one of the lucky few who should receive the limited edition in the next few weeks - sadly not with sound...yet! (See below) I asked one of the Bachmann staff about the release of the Green Cl55 with sound and was told ETA should be this April 08.
I then went to SouthWesternDigital stand and they were very helpful and told me that the Class 55 Project was complete, and for obvious commercial agreements with Backmann, will not be available for sale until the release of Bachmann's Class 55 sound model "Pinza" which they guessed would be in the first half of 2008.

So that'll be two things to look forward to, or should I say listen out for?


Keith
 

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QUOTE I then went to SouthWesternDigital stand and they were very helpful and told me that the Class 55 Project was complete, and for obvious commercial agreements with Backmann, will not be available for sale until the release of Bachmann's Class 55 sound model "Pinza" which they guessed would be in the first half of 2008.

Excellent piece of news.


David
 

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Yes I think SWD have a few projects waiting to go that are being held back for commercial reasons. Thats the impression I've taken from a few conversations with them over the past 6 months. I think this will be an interesting year for DCC sound.

I will still be intereted to see what speaker they recommend for the Deltic though!

Rob
 

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QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 23 Jan 2008, 12:37) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>BUT - Don't look for anything other than the character of the sound - the energy won't be there - ever!

Surely that's what we are aiming for - after all the sound of OO/HO rolling stock wheels over track joints will never be quite the same as the real thing !

Unless the layout is huge, then could not the bass be fed to a static sub as bass is not directional (as per home cinema set ups) if you really want to "feel" the "rumble" ?
 

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QUOTE (dbclass50 @ 24 Jan 2008, 06:56) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Surely that's what we are aiming for - after all the sound of OO/HO rolling stock wheels over track joints will never be quite the same as the real thing !

Unless the layout is huge, then could not the bass be fed to a static sub as bass is not directional (as per home cinema set ups) if you really want to "feel" the "rumble" ?

***Yes, of course you can - but practically, only in part.

that real world diesel rumble is below 100Hz and much of it is actually sub-sonic.... & small subs won't come close to cutting the mustard....so think super quality 10" or a good 12" or larger with lots of efficiency in the box design & adequate power.... or one of those vests with bass transducers in that shake the body plus a pair of lightweight high quality headphones if U don't want the whole household to be up in arms....

I think close enough is good enough if you are standing by the loco, so a bit more tight hard edged bass is probably enough really - a set of good computer speakers + quality active computer sub will be substantial enough.... they'll deliver good "attack" which will be still light on sub-bass in reality but there's really no need to feel the earth move.... Scale has some effect on perception of reality after all...

Richard
 

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QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 24 Jan 2008, 06:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I honestly think that the real sound and vibration would appear a bit wrong when a foot long loco goes past and the room is shaking and vibrating. However a partial shake and vibrate would be good.

Many years ago at a German electronics show, I remember seeing an early example of a 'music chair' with bass drivers built in to rattle the sitter about a bit. Could be just the thing?

A further challenge with the Deltic is the wonderful and varied effects obtained under an overall roof, such as KX and York. If only Ralph Vaughan-Williams had lived to hear some of these, I am sure it would have inspired a composition. There is just a hint of the right stuff in the fade out at the end of the original Dr Who theme created in the BBC radiophonic workshop...
 
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