Beginner questions on DCC point control

**** Simple answers:

(1) Yes, you MUST use a separate power supply. You will need a supply caable of delivering enough power for the point motors. If you power them directly from switches it will can be either DC or AC, if yu power via the LS150 it must be AC which is what the LS150 needs.

(2) Wiring the points themselves for DCC control is simple - left/right/common of point motor connect to left/right/common terminals on the LS150 etc...

(3) You must use heavy-ish wire. 32/.2 is good for point motors. Any less and you will definately have voltage drop and the LS150 will have trouble with changing them.

(4) If you want a visual panel then you will need another item between LS150 and Point motor, that is MASTERswitch. MASTERswitch will add extra throwing power to the LS150 to improve reliability and will give you the ability to have panel lights / signal control via points as well etc... Look for EXPAT's thread on using these (he may aso post and show you with luck). Note that Expat is not using DCC control with them - If you want to use it with a DCC decoder then you should say so when you order and you will be provided with the DCC installation kit to go with it. E Mail me off list if you need more detail)

(5) You cannot use an electronic track cleaner with DCC.

Regards

Richard

Hi oitoitoi. A Happy New Year to you and welcome to the MRF.

Following on from Richard's reply I thought you might find the attached wiring diagram useful.

As Richard says you need one power supply for the DCC Bus which is fed from your controller plus a separate power supply for the point motors (I use a 16v Gaugemaster transformer).

My wiring sizes are 32/0.2mm for the DCC Bus and 16/0.2mm for the 16v Point Motor Bus with 7/0.2mm droppers to the Masterswitches.

The Masterswitches, DPDT switches and bi-colour LEDs are all available from Richard at DCC Concepts.



I have also shown the electrical modifications which it is necessary to make to the points themselves. Assuming you are using Peco track and points be sure to buy Electrofrog points NOT Insulfrog.

I thought you might also like to see the Control panel I have built using the above wiring diagram.



If you want to see more photos of the panel have a look in my Workbench Album or look for my Chipping and Much Binding thread.

If you need more info. please feel free to ask away.

Hi guys, thanks for all the help and hope you're having a Happy New Year! That control panel's fantastic.

I'm using Hornby Insulfrog points with electroclips (I already had the points from before so didn't want to get all new peco ones), will I still be able to use the master switch? If so how many seep point motors will I be able to connect to one (I'm really trying to save the pennies), If I connect more than one pair will I still be able to use the LED's for each point?

I'm modelling my station (loosely) on Newcastle Central Station (pretty much all of the points will be on this board), it's a junction as well a through station, do I need to isolate part of it?

Here's a link to the track plan:

Newcastle Central Station

Also I wanted to include a hidden holding section on the mainline (using bitswitches for partial automation), it is ok to have a holding section on an incline? Bear in mind this is for passenger trains with 6-8 coaches.

Hi again.

I realise it may seem like money wasted but I would urge you to seriously reconsider using those insulfrog points. The problem with them is the quite large area of the frog which is plastic and therefore carries no current. Unless your locos are able to pick up power from both before and after the frog you will be plagued by locos continually stalling on the points. Maybe you could use the Hornby ones just in the hidden holding loops.

As regards the Masterswitches there are 2 types. Masterswitch V2 and Masterswitch Plus. Both types will operate 2 sets of points simultaneously but if, as seems likely from your track plan, you are using a mixture of double slips, single slips and scissor crossings, you will need 2 of the MS Pluses to control the 4 Seep motors attached to each of them. I'm sure Richard will be along shortly to extoll their uses and virtues so I will not steal his thunder by going into too much detail.

Looking at your layout design I would also suggest you get hold of a model railway track design programme as it is all too easy to under-estimate the space each turnout takes up and end up with over-tight curves at both ends in an attempt to get a quart into a pint pot. You don't say how much space you have available but I would estimate that you are going to need a space at least 20 to 25 ft (6.5 to 8 metres) long to get all of that in.

My personal maxim is PLAN, PLAN, PLAN before actually DOING anything, Even to the point of building a scale replica of the model - (See my "Model of the Model" album.) I work on the basis that, only when I am 100% sure that what I am planning will actually work do I start construction. I can't stress it too much that the more planning you do the less nasty surprises will come hurtling out of the woodwork at you.

Cheers for now.

Hey,

I'm really REALLY reluctant to change points basically due to the cost (I got a really good deal on the hornby points, 10 for £45 brand new [twice!]), I was in the understanding that if you added hornby electroclips to the points it would de-insulate them and they'd be fine for DCC? I figure they shouldn't be too tricky to conceal with a bit of weathering.

Actually there are no double/single slips etc. on this layout, I considered using them but I'd read they're tricky to wire properly and didn't really think I needed them. I've actually designed it (that image was a screenshot edited with paint) using XtrkCAD, it fits in a 15ft wide space (it was designed with that as a parameter) and the station board is just over 4ft deep.

There are also no small S-bends because I've used crossings to lengthen the points (I love crossings), there was one s-bend but I've used express points there to reduce derailment. The very smallest curves are hornby 2nd radius but there are few of those, most are bigger than 3rd radius. The curved nature of the station allows for fairly long platforms (I want 8 coach passenger trains to be standard) and some interesting modelling oppoprtunities. Knowing nothing about real railways I've no idea where to put the signal box(es?) or what signals to even use (it's an LNER steam era layout).

Any thoughts on holding loops on an incline?

QUOTE (Expat @ 2 Jan 2009, 07:00) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Glad to hear that you have, inded, used a CAD package to design the layout, but can you really get an 8 coach + loco train into the platforms ? It will be almost 10ft long and if your overall width is 15ft that only leaves 2½ ft at either end.

Well the curved platforms give me 2 advantages;
- i can fit longer platforms in the same space,
- at the end of the platforms I only have to turn through about 45 degrees rather than 90 which also allows me longer platforms

With the gresley corridor coaches (r448..) I'm using I had the train length just shy of 8ft, the shortest platform is just over 8 foot. Are there different LNER coaches available that are longer that I should be using to portray the flying scotsman route (later I will add the silver jubilee and coronation trains)? I have some coaches with an intercity set that I got years ago which are considerably longer, I just figured modern era coaches are longer, have I made a huge mistake?

According to xtrkcad I'll have 3-3 1/2 ft either side depending on the platform. I actually have 16 ft rather than 15ft to play with but I gave myself the parameter of 15ft to make sure it would fit and to give myself some leeway.

QUOTE (dwb @ 2 Jan 2009, 09:42) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I would do a few tests to see if the trains you plan to hold in the loops were able to restart ok before committing to your plan. There's no point in doing something that will eventually drive you mad and detract from your enjoyment.

I certainly will do, I'm a little way off that just yet though. I've worked out a way to use a bit more space in that area of the loft and I reckon I could get that gradient down to 1:50 or even 1:55 which should help.

Bearing in mind I would need to buy 13 masterswitches just for the station board is it worth it? I have a computer available, would it be better to use computer control with a program such as panelpro?

Using DCC to change points is not for everyone: it's a bit of a faff to change from a hand-held controller (select function, select point number (you need to know them all), then plus/minus to change). It can be useful if you like to go walkabout as you can change points as well as control locos from the same controller. It can also be useful when wiring up/diagnosing faults etc. as you can take the controller underneath the baseboard, for example.

But the main advantage of using DCC for accessories in when you use a computer. This gives you a visual display of how the points are set, and you can change with a simple mouse click. You can also set up routes which change not only points but also signals. I have a large layout (64 points to date) and now wouldn't be without the PC. I don't have a control panel - just a screen and a mouse. I dread to think how much wiring up would be needed for conventional control. Masterswitches also need a lot of wiring too. I use Lenz control equipment (set 100) plus LS150s for the point motors. These have their own power supply (a single Lenz TR100 for them all - OK as long as you only change one point at a time) and their own command bus so that I can still change points even though the track bus has a short ciruit (eg operator error, such as driving a loco towards a set of points set against it). I used a PSX-1 circuit breaker from DCC supplies for the track bus, but connect the accessory bus directly to the command station. Software is Traincontroller 5.8.

The LS150 also allows you to set up push buttons for the points - eg you could have a loco shed or goods yard you want to be close to, so you could have a mini control panel locally for this. Changing the points this way, or via the handheld, will be picked up by the PC and its track plan updated accordingly.

I use Peco PL10 point motors throughout. All points are Electrofrog - modified as described earlier in this thread - with PL13 switches on top for the the frog polarity. The LS150s give 3 amps AC power to the motors and I don't have a problem with them sticking: I find a quick squirt of WD-40 is all that's needed if a motor becomes stiff. No point is more than 2-3 ft from its LS150.

There is a problem with Insulfrog points as you can get momentary short circuits when wheels either touch the blades on the other side or both rails on the frog. It can happen on the curved road especially with long-wheelbase locos. Not a problem normally with DC, but DCC controllers are very sensitive to short circuits and can cut the power when this happens. The PSX can help here as it will automatically reset after 1 second but really electrofrog points, suitably modified, are the best solution.

See also Wiring for DCC here - http://www.wiringfordcc.com/

Hi RFS and welcome to the MRF.

While I would agree with most of your comments there are a couple of points with which I must disagree.

Firstly

QUOTE (RFS @ 2 Jan 2009, 23:02) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Masterswitches also need a lot of wiring too.

If you use 6 core alarm wire it is just a single run of wire to each Masterswitch.

Secondly

QUOTE I don't have a problem with them sticking: I find a quick squirt of WD-40 is all that's needed if a motor becomes stiff.

Please, please please throw that WD40 away. WD40 IS NOT A LUBRICANT. It is a water-repellant solvent which has electrically conductive properties. It evaporates and leaves behind a residue which will, eventually, gunge up your point motors. If it gets anywhere near your locos it will kill them. It is far better to use a good quality, very light machine oil such as is used for fishing reels or, better still, a silicon grease.

QUOTE (Expat @ 2 Jan 2009, 20:03) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi RFS and welcome to the MRF.

While I would agree with most of your comments there are a couple of points with which I must disagree.

Firstly

If you use 6 core alarm wire it is just a single run of wire to each Masterswitch.

Secondly

Please, please please throw that WD40 away. WD40 IS NOT A LUBRICANT. It is a water-repellant solvent which has electrically conductive properties. It evaporates and leaves behind a residue which will, eventually, gunge up your point motors. If it gets anywhere near your locos it will kill them. It is far better to use a good quality, very light machine oil such as is used for fishing reels or, better still, a silicon grease.

Thanks Expat. I'm aware of the pros and cons of WD-40 but when a point motor is screwed upside down on a baseboard somewhere almost inaccessible, then WD-40 is a simple expedient that I use very sparingly - perhaps on no more than 2 or 3 of my point motors. It often seems it's the accessory switch PL13 that adds to the load and hence the stiffness. Alternative is to remove the motor to the workbench which I do occasionally and then grease up properly. But the point is that I haven't found the need for a CDU with the motors connected to LS150 decoders.

As regards the Masterswitch, then it still needs wiring to a control panel whether DCC or not, especially if you want an indication of which way the points are set. I'm using a PC precisely because I didn't want to have to wire up 66 sets of points to a control panel - masterswitch or not - never mind the cost of 66 switches on top of the cost of the decoders....

Traincontroller from Railroad and Co is quite expensive but I couldn't find anything else as good. It's all documented here - http://www.freiwald.com/ . I have the equivalent of the Silver version, although today I would probably just buy the Bronze version as I really only need it to act as an electronic signal box. One nice thing about this software is that you can download it for free and run it in demo mode. It only runs for 15 minutes for a limited number of times, but at least you can get a real feel for whether it's right for you before purchasing. I bought from Tony's Train Exchange a couple of years back - not only did they give a small discount on RRP but the dollar cost was much better than the cost in Euros. All you are purchasing is a license key which is emailed to you. I did look at other software but most of it I found difficult to follow, which, being from an IT background myself, did not augur well! You can also use some free software from JMRI but I found it too much trouble compared to the ease of Traincontroller - see http://jmri.sourceforge.net/.

Hi guys, I've given in and decided to ditch the hornby points and go for peco electrofrog. Is code 100 streamline worth it or is set track a better option? Also are streamline large radius points similar in size and radius to hornby express points? Is there a set track equivalent?

I've redesigned my layout to be much more prototypical (takes up more space now too...) and will post a plan soon, it's going to be pricey with mostly large radius points...I've decided to go with computer control over master switches as predetermined routes is what I need most as well as some partial automation. Traincontroller looks good, I found JMRI to be a bit daunting tbh. Does anyone know of a uk supplier of bit switches? One or 2 could really help, even with computer control.

Also does anyone know of an existing layout where newcastle is modelled that I could see some pics of? Also does anyone know if Newcastle ever handled any freight?

Sorry about all the questions, any help would be much appreciated!