[Gary]

Thinking of a solution to the dilema that the manufacturers have with this model why does it have to be sold as a set?

Could they not develop a power car and a trailer car and sell them seperately?

And then produce coaches and sell them seperately?

This way customers can build up a full set if that is what they want over a period of time.

Or modellers can simply operate with a 4 car set (or whatever) as for many a full set will be far too long for the layout.

This seems to be the perfect solution

Power car for £65. Trailer car for £35. Coaches for £25 each.

I simply cannot see what the issue is for the manufacturers when it is broken down like this.

Or am I being naive?

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[34C]

Gary,

I don't think pricing is the core problem. There is proven demand for £60 -£100 locos, and £20 - £30 coaches in the BR steam to diesel transition era.

The Blue Pullman is history from half a lifetime ago; three trains, short lived, limited route. Iconic, and fondly remembered, the subject of a 'dream' trainset for many now 45+ years old. That's sentiment, but what the manufacturer will look at is the commercial prospect, measured as return on investment, of any new introduction. At present their opinion appears to be that there are better returns on investment to be made elsewhere.

But as the pool of unmodelled prototypes is reduced by the RTR manufacturers activities, it's prospects are likely to improve. Personally, I am amazed that no manufacturer appears to be prepared to do a quality job on the HST: long life, so many liveries, widespread use...

 

[Gary]

The issue with the HST is that it is not that collectable. You are only ever likely to have one or at the most two sets running on your layout and it makes a much better set train than stand alone shelf collectable due to its length and the need to have coaches. And the train set market has entirely different demands. And there are already hundreds of thousands of HST models out there and could you really significantly improve on the model as when it is running at high speed on a layout you simply cannot see the detail! Like the Pendo really. And its pointless knocking the current motor bogie type running as it does its job again like that of the Pendo.

Same argument of course could be applied to the Blue Pullman however the appeal of a Blue Pullman to the collector/modeller has to be (in my opinion!) somewhat stronger than the HST.

Its down to how big the collector/modeller market is. I say its huge. And to offer it on a unit basis enables collector/modellers to purchase the full set over several months spreading the cost.

It needs a lottery winner to approach Bachmann with a commission.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[72C]

IMHO the idea of a Blue Pullman is only desirable to a tiny percentage of modellers who are interested in a a very small timeframe on a minority interest route albeit on the Western Region. There seems to be a concerted effort by a very vocal few to persuade Bachmann of Hornby to commit financial suicide by producing this aberration for 'normal' prices. Their constant lobbying has become a mainstay of these forums but it still does not make their case any stronger or more economically viable and I wish that they would just either put up or shut up.

I wearily note that less glamorous but long-lived and more suitable DMU's are ignore by this vocal few due to their myopic view of the past.

34C's suggestion is as sensible as it is appropriate and whether it is 'collectable' or not, the HST does seem as more viable project.

 

[Ravenser]

Yes - if they won't do a 2 car Cravens , they aren't going to do a 6 or 8 car Blue Pullman.

I must admit I'm a little sceptical about the existance of this vast "collectors market". It's an observable fact that a lot of modern image modellers go chasing a particular release because they need the livery - and modern liveries can be a nightmare to do. The Scotrail 158 is a classic example of this , so is the Southern 171. This is the market the likes of TMC and ModelZone are tapping into. The special run/limited editions commissioned by and sold through magazines like Rail, Rail Express, and now Hornby Magazine will go into the same sector - the folk buying specialist modelling magazines are by definition active modellers, not toy collectors

It was Lima who built their business round the "collectors market" , and the limited editions were all diesels and generally special liveries - the really tough paint jobs you can't do yourself. Also Lima went bust ... it's a not clear they read the market right.

In DCC discussions we keep coming up against the folk who can't convert because they have 100-150 locos in their collection. I'd hazard a guess there's a lot of Lima diesels in those 100 locos, and a lot of them are the limited editions. We're also seeing a collapse in the value of second hand Lima locos and mounds of the stuff appearing on second hand stalls or ebay. This phenomenon seems to be driven by the appearance of new generation models from Bachmann and Hornby - we've heard a lot about people "upgrading" and selling off their old Lima or Hornby locos and replacing them with new Bachmann/Hornby/Heljan . I can't see why collectors would sell. And with the collapse in prices any investment collector will have been very badly burnt. Wrenn and Hornby Dublo may still command 3 figure prices - Lima 47s aren't worth much

This doesn't preclude some of the stuff being sold on as mint boxed. We all know of people who are collecting stock for the layout they hope to build some day ... It generally ends up in a box in the loft containing 4 times as much stock as they could possibly run. Come new generation models and DCC , and there is a reappraisal - much of the stuff is not good enough to be worth the hassle of upgrading and hardwiring for DCC, so out goes a great pile of boxes onto ebay to fund a smaller fleet of new models with decoders in them

I was at a show recently where there was more than one stall selling bargains. In particular a trader with a great pile of second hand in original boxes , mostly Lima with some Hornby. A nicely weathered 31 "good runner" on offer for £24. A friend picked up a 121 in an unusual livery for £27 and a 101 in NSE for £35. There were certainly a few limited editions in there (a Rail limited edition for under £30 ). If these came from collectors , I can't see why all this stuff has suddenly appeared on the market (and the collectors will have got back a fraction of what they paid). On the other hand both the things my friend bought did not seem to have been run. I'm guessing they were amassed for some "one day" layout and someone has had a clearout and cut back. This isn't the sort of thing Gary thinks of as collectors : they were surely bought to be run - one day, when someone finally got round to building the layout ,honest...

I'm also baffled by the view that the HST isn't really a commercial subject. Step back and look at the big picture - this is the iconic train of the late 20th century . At the end of the day all the general public remembers of the high noon of steam between the wars is Mallard and Flying Scotsman. It all distills down to that. All the public will remember in 50 years about railways of the late 20th century is the HST. This isn't a commercial subject???

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Ravenser @ 26 Oct 2007, 18:02) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Also Lima went bust ...

More specifically, the group that Lima belonged to went into receivership.

 

[Ravenser]

Fair point. However I have to say as a modern image modeller , that in the last couple of years British Lima looked outclassed and dead in the water compared to what was coming out from Bachmann, then Hornby and Heljan. The Heljan 47 blew the Lima one away , commercially as well as mechanically. It was literally true that people went out , bought Heljan 47s and then stuck their existing Lima 47s on ebay to get rid of them. And this had been one of Lima's two best sellers..... The Bachmann 08 was light years ahead of the Lima version and vastly more accurate and detailed to boot. The price was fractionally higher for Bachmann I think : in 2000 Lima 08s were costing £40 or more from the box shifters , while today you can pick up a Bachmann one for £36. The Hornby 08 is regarded as better still

The 67 was Lima's only attempt at a high spec model and billed as their reposte to Bachmann and Heljan. The original version had severe build quality issues (the drive train broke up inside a significant percentage during shipment), significant innaccuracies. and it was widely regarded as a sick joke, demonstrating mainly that Lima hadn't a clue what they were now up against.. The printed grills on the front went down like a lead balloon with the D+E critics

If the parent Rivarossi Group hadn't folded , it's a very moot point in my mind whether British Lima could have survived in the market more than a few more years without a radical and drastic overhaul. The 67 seemed to demonstrate that that kind of thing was out of their reach

Hornby have addressed the build quality/mechanical issues , and significantly improved the finishing , but the rereleased 67 is still regarded as pretty mediocre

 

[Doug]

Hang ten...

Who actually wants a Blue Pullman?

It has become a mythical model an now most people think it holds some sort of mystique. Who says so?

OK, perhaps it has some sort of mystique value - If they actually made the damn thing, what model would we be after next?

 

[ozwarrior]

Speaking of categories I'd suggest that most have their feet in both if not three camps:
Collector, modeller & (for want of a better word) train setter.
I find most things in life are shades of grey.
I'd love a blue pullman but I doubt it will happen.

 

[Gary]

QUOTE Hang ten...

Who actually wants a Blue Pullman?

Good point.

Did they not say the same about the prototype Deltic?

Whilst there appears to be a lot of initial interest in the NRM model lets see if all 3000 sell out before they are actually on the shelves in the museum shop!

If it does this could be a new tactic used by manufacturers to determine interest in "risky" models that are announced and available to pre-order but not actually in production.

Happy modelling
Gary

PS not had my NRM call back yet. Do I hang fire and wait or try again?

 

[72C]

QUOTE Did they not say the same about the prototype Deltic?

Err, actually no. A single unit* that is perceived as being relatively saleable in terms of popularity and public life, moreover in sheer physical terms a single unit is easier to off-load than a 6-8 coach formation of dubious popularity and relatively minuscule service life.

72C

*Also applies to the LMS Co-Co's

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (ozwarrior @ 27 Oct 2007, 03:14) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Speaking of categories I'd suggest that most have their feet in both if not three camps:
Collector, modeller & (for want of a better word) train setter.

I agree - & many of us must be very much the same;

I collect models, but they are (& must) run, some are kept in boxes & rotated with those in the main showcase. I do not collect models that spend their life in the boxes & are never run or even taken out of the box - therefore in some eyes I am not a serious collector.

I model (SL which keeps me busy), mostly the M & E side (BRITHO does the scenery side).

I play - yes I play trains, so I am probably a train setter.

Those that know me, will of course realise that I have a foot in a forth camp.

 

[Ravenser]

The exotics actually make a certain sense.

The Ivatt Co-Cos had longer service lives than any of the BR Standard steam engines or any of the hydraulics (1947-66), and quite a wide geographical range : the whole of the WCML system from Euston to Perth, the Southern main line from Waterloo to the West of England, plus ventures onto the Midland. A lot of steam age modellers could justify one

Falcon lasted 14 years (1961-75), and saw widespread service on much of the ER and WR. Again , a lot of modellers of the 60s (a popular period) and 70s could justify a model on the layout

Both had a reasonable number of liveries

Deltic was shorter lived (1955-61) but ranged quite widely up and down the WCML and ECML

In contrast , Lion managed just 2 years in service and DP2 , 5 years. The latter might be a possible candidate for an "exotic". Kestrel managed three years.

The other "one off" exotic candidates would include the LNER's W1 4-6-4, the LMS "turbomotive", Duke of Gloucester, and possibly The Great Bear and 89 001 Avocet. All were high profile and reasonably long lived exotics with a decent geographical range

 

[7113]

If I may add my ten pennorth at this point what about GT3? Yes I know it was very short lived, but it was an attractive machine in an attractive delivery. Also I believe it was built on a set of class 4 4-6-0 frames, so Bachmann wouldalready have a suitable chassis.

Regards