BR Diesel liveries
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Hi fordy,
The first appearance of the blue livery was the XP64 set in 1964, this also had the small yellow warning panel.
Rail blue became the standard livery on all repaints from 1966, (even though some locos remained in green until the mid 70's.
The TOPS classes were introduced, I think, in 1970, renumbering actually commenced in 1973.
Hope this helps.
Regards
John
The first appearance of the blue livery was the XP64 set in 1964, this also had the small yellow warning panel.
Rail blue became the standard livery on all repaints from 1966, (even though some locos remained in green until the mid 70's.
The TOPS classes were introduced, I think, in 1970, renumbering actually commenced in 1973.
Hope this helps.
Regards
John
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Just to add a couple of things to what John has already correctly pointed out,as there are no 'straightforward' answers to your questions...the whole subject of 'transition liveries' being something of a minefield
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,so you need to study plenty of photographs to get an accurate picture.
Rail Blue was generally applied from 1966,but some early repaints had small yellow panels [SYP from hereon] before the full yellow end [FYE from hereon] was finally decided upon.
Some early Western Region 1966/7 repaints used a 'Chromatic Blue' [slightly metallic finish] with SYP on some Diesel Hydraulics.
The JB version of the Cl.73's were delivered from new,in 1965, in Blue/SYP livery,the first 7 having a light grey band on the bottom of the bodyside.
Some locos only had their green livery touched up when getting FYE.Application of FYE starting late '66/early '67,varying with the regions,and sometimes done at the depot without the loco having a works visit.
SYP started appearing on diesels/multiple units from 1962,although it took a while for it to be applied to some...
The Southern,for instance didn't start applying SYP until relatively late in the day,the first JA type Cl.73 no E6001 having it from new[1962], but the next 5 JA's not having it untill applied much later [1967 it seems]. Class 33's [apart from D6530 which was the first and had a larger SYP than the others with rounded corners on the top] didn't get SYP's applied until the summer of 1966,and I'm sure that a few of them never recieved it before being painted in Blue/FYE.
Then there was the 'experimental wraparound FYE' that was applied in mid 1967 to a handful of locos and units from most regions on either blue or green livery [as demonstrated by Hornby's incorrect application of this to a Cl.121 unit]
Obviously this is only a brief description of the variety to be seen,but it hopefully gives a bit of an idea on this vast,and fascinating subject.
There is no substitute for thorough research,and if modelling a particular subject,work from a photograph of it taken at the time....
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As a contrast to this,however, the application af TOPS numbers seems to have been fairly swift in late'73/early'74....even on stuff still in green...
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Rail Blue was generally applied from 1966,but some early repaints had small yellow panels [SYP from hereon] before the full yellow end [FYE from hereon] was finally decided upon.
Some early Western Region 1966/7 repaints used a 'Chromatic Blue' [slightly metallic finish] with SYP on some Diesel Hydraulics.
The JB version of the Cl.73's were delivered from new,in 1965, in Blue/SYP livery,the first 7 having a light grey band on the bottom of the bodyside.
Some locos only had their green livery touched up when getting FYE.Application of FYE starting late '66/early '67,varying with the regions,and sometimes done at the depot without the loco having a works visit.
SYP started appearing on diesels/multiple units from 1962,although it took a while for it to be applied to some...
The Southern,for instance didn't start applying SYP until relatively late in the day,the first JA type Cl.73 no E6001 having it from new[1962], but the next 5 JA's not having it untill applied much later [1967 it seems]. Class 33's [apart from D6530 which was the first and had a larger SYP than the others with rounded corners on the top] didn't get SYP's applied until the summer of 1966,and I'm sure that a few of them never recieved it before being painted in Blue/FYE.
Then there was the 'experimental wraparound FYE' that was applied in mid 1967 to a handful of locos and units from most regions on either blue or green livery [as demonstrated by Hornby's incorrect application of this to a Cl.121 unit]
Obviously this is only a brief description of the variety to be seen,but it hopefully gives a bit of an idea on this vast,and fascinating subject.
There is no substitute for thorough research,and if modelling a particular subject,work from a photograph of it taken at the time....
As a contrast to this,however, the application af TOPS numbers seems to have been fairly swift in late'73/early'74....even on stuff still in green...
QUOTE (DS239 @ 1 Feb 2007, 14:49) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As a contrast to this,however, the application af TOPS numbers seems to have been fairly swift in late'73/early'74....even on stuff still in green...
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Er.... apart from the western region Diesel Hydraulics, which were never renumbered, the sole class 53 which finished it's days as 1200, and the class 45's wich seemed to take forever to renumber. (And made my ABC a total mess)
Regards
John
Er.... apart from the western region Diesel Hydraulics, which were never renumbered, the sole class 53 which finished it's days as 1200, and the class 45's wich seemed to take forever to renumber. (And made my ABC a total mess)
Regards
John
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213 Posts
Well,I didn't count the Hydraulics as they didn't carry TOPS numbers,and 'Falcon' was a one-off anyway,but I was speaking generally,and judging from photos,loco's didn't seem to linger with their original numbers for too long after the TOPS renumbering was implemented..however,as with most things,there's always an exception that proves the rule as your observations of the Cl.45's bears out....
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As an aside, I have seen/got somewhere a photograph of a green class 20 with TOPS numbering and the BR arrow of indecision logos!
Work that one out.
I have to agree with DS239 it's a minefield when you get into transition liveries and there is nothing like a bit of research to really throw the rivet counters and expert off the scent. However, don't forget to keep a copy handy of any reference to shut 'em up.
Regards
John
Work that one out.
I have to agree with DS239 it's a minefield when you get into transition liveries and there is nothing like a bit of research to really throw the rivet counters and expert off the scent. However, don't forget to keep a copy handy of any reference to shut 'em up.
Regards
John
And 2 locos made it to TOPS numbers carrying pre 1957 black , with the original lion crest (01 001 and 01 002)
40 106 (I think) never went into blue at all - she was the last mainline loco in green circa 1985 and was then given a celebrity repaint back into green
I've got a 1972 abc , and it still has quite a few shots of locos in green . There were certainly locos that got TOPS numbers on green.
basically this is a huge , complex area for heavy duty D+E scholarship, and the basic rule is find a dated photo of the loco, and don't assume other locos followed suit.....
There is a dated photo (Oct 67) of a 108 in blue with wrap-round yellow , at Weekday Cross on the GC in BR First Generation DMUs (IA). A few pages earlier there's aphoto of 2 x 2 car Cravens at Potters Bar , Apr 67 , with 3 vehicles in green , one in blue with SYP
In short its very very messy....
Yellow warning panels seem to have first appeared some time in 1960
40 106 (I think) never went into blue at all - she was the last mainline loco in green circa 1985 and was then given a celebrity repaint back into green
I've got a 1972 abc , and it still has quite a few shots of locos in green . There were certainly locos that got TOPS numbers on green.
basically this is a huge , complex area for heavy duty D+E scholarship, and the basic rule is find a dated photo of the loco, and don't assume other locos followed suit.....
There is a dated photo (Oct 67) of a 108 in blue with wrap-round yellow , at Weekday Cross on the GC in BR First Generation DMUs (IA). A few pages earlier there's aphoto of 2 x 2 car Cravens at Potters Bar , Apr 67 , with 3 vehicles in green , one in blue with SYP
In short its very very messy....
Yellow warning panels seem to have first appeared some time in 1960
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QUOTE (DS239 @ 1 Feb 2007, 14:49) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>..]. Class 33's ... I'm sure that a few of them never recieved it before being painted in Blue/FYE.
Quite likely DS - there were certainly 33s running in 1968 with no SYP, also a handful of ex-Inverness 20s
QUOTE (DS239 @ 1 Feb 2007, 14:49) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As a contrast to this,however, the application af TOPS numbers seems to have been fairly swift in late'73/early'74....even on stuff still in green...
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I'd suggest that was because it was a fairly important operational requirement, whereas repaints weren't.
TOPS class numbers were first publicised in late 1968. The first loco to carry a TOPS number was 76050 in late 1971, closely followed by refurbed 83s and 84s the following year. Diesels started with 45101 in spring 73 but general application would have been from about Sept. The ER, at least , instituted a 'crash' renumbering programme in early 74 but the ScR seemed tardy, with many renumbering dates into autumn 74. The reason for the Peaks being drawn out was that, initially, it hadnt been decided precisely which ones were to acquire ETH; some 47/4 conversions were also affected and carried four-figure numbers into 1975.
QUOTE (BRITHO @ 2 Feb 2007, 11:24) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As an aside, I have seen/got somewhere a photograph of a green class 20 with TOPS numbering and the BR arrow of indecision logos!
Work that one out.
Not common on 20s, to be sure, but a green locos with arrows isnt particularly noteworthy (a particular fondness of Doncaster, notably on 31s and 15s)
QUOTE (Ravenser @ 2 Feb 2007, 18:01) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>basically this is a huge , complex area for heavy duty D+E scholarship, and the basic rule is find a dated photo of the loco, and don't assume other locos followed suit.....
In short its very very messy....
As ever, a pithy summation, Rave
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Quite likely DS - there were certainly 33s running in 1968 with no SYP, also a handful of ex-Inverness 20s
QUOTE (DS239 @ 1 Feb 2007, 14:49) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As a contrast to this,however, the application af TOPS numbers seems to have been fairly swift in late'73/early'74....even on stuff still in green...
I'd suggest that was because it was a fairly important operational requirement, whereas repaints weren't.
TOPS class numbers were first publicised in late 1968. The first loco to carry a TOPS number was 76050 in late 1971, closely followed by refurbed 83s and 84s the following year. Diesels started with 45101 in spring 73 but general application would have been from about Sept. The ER, at least , instituted a 'crash' renumbering programme in early 74 but the ScR seemed tardy, with many renumbering dates into autumn 74. The reason for the Peaks being drawn out was that, initially, it hadnt been decided precisely which ones were to acquire ETH; some 47/4 conversions were also affected and carried four-figure numbers into 1975.
QUOTE (BRITHO @ 2 Feb 2007, 11:24) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As an aside, I have seen/got somewhere a photograph of a green class 20 with TOPS numbering and the BR arrow of indecision logos!
Work that one out.
Not common on 20s, to be sure, but a green locos with arrows isnt particularly noteworthy (a particular fondness of Doncaster, notably on 31s and 15s)
QUOTE (Ravenser @ 2 Feb 2007, 18:01) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>basically this is a huge , complex area for heavy duty D+E scholarship, and the basic rule is find a dated photo of the loco, and don't assume other locos followed suit.....
In short its very very messy....
As ever, a pithy summation, Rave
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One other point is that apparently for some reason a few locos went through works for servicing without a repaint hence the longevity of the green livery on a few class 20's and 47's
QUOTE (bangerblueed @ 3 Feb 2007, 23:42) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>One other point is that apparently for some reason a few locos went through works for servicing without a repaint hence the longevity of the green livery on a few class 20's and 47's
I'll go along with that. I well remember seeing an absolutely filthy green 47 at Cardiff Canton in 1976, I think that was probably the last original green loco I ever saw.
Regards
John
I'll go along with that. I well remember seeing an absolutely filthy green 47 at Cardiff Canton in 1976, I think that was probably the last original green loco I ever saw.
Regards
John
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Lots of locos went through works without a full repaint, it wasnt especially unusual. Around the turn of the 70s f'rinstance, a lot of 47s were just touched up and revarnished, acquiring asymmetric ('blue'-style) number transfers at the same time
I'd reckon the most likely reason for the survival of the green 201xx class 20s (and the regularly-quoted 47/3s) is that as essentially freight engines, that had only been built c1965/66, they had generally run lower mileages, so were correspondingly later in needing major overhaul
I'd reckon the most likely reason for the survival of the green 201xx class 20s (and the regularly-quoted 47/3s) is that as essentially freight engines, that had only been built c1965/66, they had generally run lower mileages, so were correspondingly later in needing major overhaul
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"British Rail 1948-1978 - a Journey by Design" gives some information on the introduction of yellow ends and other livery changes, but only in general terms, not a 'loco by loco' account which is what is needed here, it seems.
Regards,
John Webb
Regards,
John Webb
Ive been thinking about this thread and it has suddely dawned on me that we haven't come up with answers to locos going from black or WR maroon, and yes I know the WR hydraulic liveries (with the exception of the Hymeks) are a minefield within a minefield.
Regards
John
Regards
John
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QUOTE (BRITHO @ 6 Feb 2007, 11:49) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>This is starting to get interesting - I presume that someone, somewhere has actually written a book on this. If so does anybody know who?
QUOTE (John Webb @ 6 Feb 2007, 11:58) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>...only in general terms, not a 'loco by loco' account which is what is needed here, it seems.
Regards,
John Webb
Generally, this sort of thing comes from personal recollection, perusal of appropriate photo albums or mags and latterly, Fotopic/private websites. In my case I've developed a natural leaning to it from spotting days; there are a handful of other people I know who take a similarly deep interest, but the subject is truly vast - even if we all pooled our knowledge, it still wouldnt be anywhere near the full story.
There are odd, obscure published items, such as John Hague's 'Uncorporate Identity', a supplement issued with BRM/Traction about five years ago, and at least one (thinnish) D&EG (Diesel and Electric Group) publication. Or you could pop over to RMweb every so often, where we have these discussions quite a lot
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QUOTE (John Webb @ 6 Feb 2007, 11:58) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>...only in general terms, not a 'loco by loco' account which is what is needed here, it seems.
Regards,
John Webb
Generally, this sort of thing comes from personal recollection, perusal of appropriate photo albums or mags and latterly, Fotopic/private websites. In my case I've developed a natural leaning to it from spotting days; there are a handful of other people I know who take a similarly deep interest, but the subject is truly vast - even if we all pooled our knowledge, it still wouldnt be anywhere near the full story.
There are odd, obscure published items, such as John Hague's 'Uncorporate Identity', a supplement issued with BRM/Traction about five years ago, and at least one (thinnish) D&EG (Diesel and Electric Group) publication. Or you could pop over to RMweb every so often, where we have these discussions quite a lot
QUOTE (fordy361 @ 7 Feb 2007, 06:54) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I seem to have opened a can of worms with this topic. Basically I can run a layout in the region of 1966 - 1968 with steam(late crest) green and blue diesel then!
........and of course some steam locos never received the later crest!!
Regards
John
........and of course some steam locos never received the later crest!!
Regards
John
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QUOTE (BRITHO @ 7 Feb 2007, 13:29) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>........and of course some steam locos never received the later crest!!
True,but they'd virtually all disappeared by 1966...
[and,yes, I know that are a handful of exceptions to this...
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]
True,but they'd virtually all disappeared by 1966...
[and,yes, I know that are a handful of exceptions to this...
QUOTE (DS239 @ 12 Feb 2007, 13:49) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>True,but they'd virtually all disappeared by 1966...
[and,yes, I know that are a handful of exceptions to this...
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]
You see DS that's the real joy of this forum, the wealth of useless information that comes to light!!
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Regards
John
[and,yes, I know that are a handful of exceptions to this...
You see DS that's the real joy of this forum, the wealth of useless information that comes to light!!
Regards
John
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Just found this as I am trawling through all of the forum while the snooker is on. This keeps me awake! Have any of you had a look at this http://www.railblue.com/ it is a good source of info for what is my modelling era preference.
Chris Wright
Chris Wright
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