[Thomas]

I start this thread to share with you my thaughts regarding the qualitiy and value for money of Continental rolling stock.
This thread can and should contain some constructive and critical statements but please let us take care to avoid "Hornby and Bachmann bashing"

During the last 10 years I only bought British rolling stock, read British railway magazines and never visited a local modeltrain-shop.
From the forums and the magazines I got the impression that we never had it so good and that continental models are sometimes a little bit better and always much more expensive - A view I no longer share.

Some weeks ago I got 10 Bachmann 2 axle wagons delivered. Medium Price per wagon from box shifter: ca 6,- pound (excl. postage)
All wagons equipped with pockets for the couplers but without kinematic. So it is not possible to use short coupling without modification. 3 out of 10 run OK, 7 out of 10 wobble a lot and need better wheelsets.

Last week I bought 12 Roco wagons from a local shop. Medium price ca 5,80 pound. All wagons equipped with NEM pockets for the couplers and kinematic for short coupling. I exchanged the couplers within minutes for Roco universal couplersand now have delayed uncoupling and short coupling. All the wagons have excellent wheelsets and run much smoother than all my Bachmann rolling stock.

Of course it is easier for Roco to produce some cheap wagons because with continental rolling stock you can change the livery and sell the wagon as German, Austrian, French,.... one. And some of the newest releases from Roco cost more because they have to regain the cost of tooling as has Bachmann who fortunately release new goods rolling stock every year and should be applauded for it.
My very personal conclusion: Roco good value for money, Bachmann not.
I really would like all the Bachmann wagons with features and quality as my Roco wagons and would pay for it. If Bachmann could do it and the price would go up from 6 to 8 pound for me it would be excellent value for money. I could afford fewer rolling stock per year but would be happier with what I get.
What do you think?

 

[Thomas]

Otherwhere in this forum I read about Hornby Rivarossi and it looked the worse for Horny.
As I have a strong interest in Italian railways I have some experience with Lima and Rivarossi products of the past as well as some knowlegde from the Italian railway magazines and forums I try to read.
Hornby initially got some bad press because they messed some of the liveries (the feedback of their distributors will take care that that will not happen again) and during the absence of Rivarossi some new companies started to produce the same or similar models with newer toolings.

My impression:
Hornby improved the quality of the models, better drive, better assembly, better painting (aformentioned use of wrong colour apart).
The price is more affordable now than the old Rivarossi was.
When there is a better model than the resurrected Hornby-Rivarossi one it usually costs more.

Spare parts for old models can not be expected from Hornby as they changed (improved!) the models. However there are sheets with assembly diagramms for the new models so one can order spares for the new Hornby-Rivarossi ones.

My conclusion:
Hornby improved the value for money of Rivarossi products.

Thomas

 

[ME 26-06]

I´ve made a vow to steer clear of this type of thread.

Sorry.

 

[simonj]

I started with Hornby as a child but got sick of the trains needed continual push with a finger over points etc. The price gap then was wider than today, but still as a school kid I saved up to buy a Fleischmann loco at x3 the cost of a UK outline model. Today the price gap is much narrower but still the Farish N gauge looks rough with big mould lines running down the centre of the bodies of loco's costing £90.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE (ME 26-06 @ 26 Sep 2007, 03:15) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I´ve made a vow to steer clear of this type of thread.

Sorry.

Same here

 

[ozwarrior]

QUOTE (ME 26-06 @ 26 Sep 2007, 03:15) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I´ve made a vow to steer clear of this type of thread.

Sorry.

Ditto...variety is the spice of life!

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (simonj @ 25 Sep 2007, 19:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I started with Hornby as a child but got sick of the trains needed continual push with a finger over points etc. The price gap then was wider than today, but still as a school kid I saved up to buy a Fleischmann loco at x3 the cost of a UK outline model. Today the price gap is much narrower

Pretty much the same story with me !

 

[Dennis David]

I would think the priority would be to choose the type of outline that you like best and then pay attention to which models to stay away from. If I prefered British trains the fact that Continental models might be better or worse value for the money would matter nought, except in trying to convince the companies that you do buy from to raise their game if that's what's needed. Besides that what's the point in discussing one view or another especially in such a general manner. I seldom see these kinds of discussions on American boards or when I am at home. People who run US prototype wouldn't think of running anything else regardless of how good German trains were or not. Why does these kind of topics keep turning up here?

If you model British outline be happy with what you have and the great prices you pay and just pay attention that those models may be a little more fragile, end of story. Don't compare apples with oranges.

 

[Thomas]

QUOTE (Dennis David @ 26 Sep 2007, 10:01) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If you model British outline be happy with what you have and the great prices you pay and just pay attention that those models may be a little more fragile, end of story. Don't compare apples with oranges. :thumbsup:ls
I do not compare apples with oranges - I just happen to model UK and continental stuff. Models of Swiss, Austrian and German prototyps within the same price range have the same quality and features so I would like the same with my models of British prototyps.

Thomas

 

[Dennis David]

In the same price range? Sorry all the German stuff I have costs a lot more than similiar British models. I must be doing something wrong.

 

[Thomas]

@ Dennis David: end of story - I think this is not very polite but if this is the way you like the forum I will stop posting here and have my account canceled. I really get fed up with impatient and unfriendly behaviour on forums.

Thomas

 

[Dennis David]

"end of story" is an American term that I think you are not translating corectly. It only relates to my opinion and makes no denegration of yours. Gary in another post decribes a couple of British models: "With a loco and 3 wagons available for £26.50 and a brand new Virgin Class 47 for £34.50" I am not seing anything comparable in what I purchase which is German.

BTW,

I don't "run" this forum.

 

[Sol]

I am now confused . I cannot see any " impatient and unfriendly behaviour "
Certainly I do think interpretations of words may cause a few eyebrows to be raised.
Comparisons must be between similar detail and price. How can one compare a Rolls Royce & a Mini Monor - 2 different cars.

 

[Thomas]

For German outline some very affordable models from Piko are available:

Class 218 diesel hydraulik, Traxx/Hercules diesel electric, Taurus electric,..
All feature working lights, all wheel drive, NEM pockets, are DCC ready.ca
Cost at my local store 50-55 euro (33-36 pound) maybe cheaper from a box-shifter)

Thomas

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Thomas @ 26 Sep 2007, 09:56) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>For German outline some very affordable models from Piko are available:

Class 218 diesel hydraulik, Traxx/Hercules diesel electric, Taurus electric,..
All feature working lights, all wheel drive, NEM pockets, are DCC ready.ca
Cost at my local store 50-55 euro (33-36 pound) maybe cheaper from a box-shifter)

Thomas

Hi Thomas,

As you say the Piko Hobby Range are excellent (we sell quite of few of them) - the Roco equivelent are good also.

There are quite a few people here who run what they want & mix up 00, HO european & HO US & run it at the same time on the same layout & enjoy the hobby more for it - please don't be put off by those that are too blinkered - I run mostly HO european myself by mix stock from all countries & epochs - about the only thiong I do try to get "right" is the actual make up of the trains themselves.

 

[Gary]

QUOTE In the same price range? Sorry all the German stuff I have costs a lot more than similiar British models. I must be doing something wrong.

You are doing something wrong!

When making the comparison why not take a continental model range thats in a similar price bracket to a UK model range rather than those models of the usual German suspects?

There is a model range in Austria (only available in Austria) that is almost half the price of British models!

The real issue surely though is not value for money when comparing British to Continental.

Its value for money when comparing budget continental with top end continental and whether the extra money paid for top end relative to budget is perceived to be value for money.

I would guess that our Amercan friends have a similar dilema in the USA with budget and top end Amercan models.

Maybe this would make for a better discussion?

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[7113]

QUOTE (Gary @ 26 Sep 2007, 16:56) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>When making the comparison why not take a continental model range thats in a similar price bracket to a UK model range rather than those models of the usual German suspects?

Ok - take the Piko Hobby range as Thomas has alredy pointed out. These models have 8 wheel drive, DCC sockets fitted, working directional lights, NEM pockets and no traction tyres. They can be purchased here in the UK for about £40.00. How does the, what is best described as venerable, H class 47 have as it's selling points. (excluding it's agreed very competitive price.)

And before you start I am not Hornby knocking or suggesting that any other manufacturer is superior.

Regards

 

[Ravenser]

It depends what you choose as comparison. The Hornby 47 hasn't been regarded as a mainstream option for a modern image modeller in over 20 years , since the Lima model came out.

If you seriously want a 47 , you'll buy the new Bachmann model (unless you've been reading too many issues of Rail Express), or maybe pick up a Heljan "tubbyduff" for under £60. If you're a student on a tight budget you'll buy a Lima 47 for £20-£30 on ebay and detail it

The Piko Hobby range stacks up pretty well against the Bachmann 20. Same price , superb mechanism, very accurate and detailed body. No lights but I'd respectfully suggest you'd never have seen the lights on a 20 in daylight. I can't remember if they have NEM pockets or not - I think they do

Or the Bachmann or Hornby 08. Or the Bachmann 25

It's the old old story - what's available in British outline RTR is such a mixed bag of old and new and high and low standard that you can skew any comparison by judicious selection of the example. Hornby Hymek (introduced 1967) or Hornby 60 (2006)? Hornby B12 (1961) or Hornby A3 (2005)? Which is the "typical" model

(Or in N Farish 08 or Farish 60/Dapol low emission 66? . That said , British N is generally a generation behind British OO in quality. The Dapol 66 is not up to the standard of the Hornby 60 or Bachmann 66 )

It is fair to say that British outline RTR still has quite a lot of older models to a lower standard, as well as the more recent higher quality models. It will take some years before all the old models are replaced. Whereas the standard of US and Continental HO is more consistant across the board

 

[simonj]

QUOTE (Ravenser @ 26 Sep 2007, 17:59) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It's the old old story - what's available in British outline RTR is such a mixed bag of old and new and high and low standard that you can skew any comparison by judicious selection of the example. Hornby Hymek (introduced 1967) or Hornby 60 (2006)? Hornby B12 (1961) or Hornby A3 (2005)? Which is the "typical" model

(Or in N Farish 08 or Farish 60/Dapol low emission 66? . That said , British N is generally a generation behind British OO in quality. The Dapol 66 is not up to the standard of the Hornby 60 or Bachmann 66 )

A lot of the Fleischmann stuff is very old although still of very high quality, eg class BR52 first released in 1969, various others that won model of the year going back to the 70's and 80's. Even the Fleischmann turntable which still hasn't been bettered was first released in 1975.

 

[Gary]

QUOTE A lot of the Fleischmann stuff is very old although still of very high quality, eg class BR52 first released in 1969, various others that won model of the year going back to the 70's and 80's. Even the Fleischmann turntable which still hasn't been bettered was first released in 1975.

So is what is being said is that Continental models as models (forget the technology) have stood still?

It should be remembered that in the 1960's the price differences between the Fleischmann and Triang range then was pretty much the same as it is now.

On the basis of continental models as models standing still and the advances that have been made to the appearance of British models in this time then todays British models represent remarkable value by comparison with the same Triang/Fleischmann model ranges of the 1960's!

Going back to what I said earlier it would make for a better discussion if budget continental was compared with top end continental as Hornby and Bachmann simply do not make any HO scale British models!

Let us remember that OO scale means that the Brits get bigger British outline models for their money in any case!

Think Class 66 which is available in OO and HO.

Happy modelling
Gary