[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Doug @ 16 Oct 2008, 23:05) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As some may know, it is actually a very old symbol used in Asia for thousands of years. The symbol can be found over the entrances of temples in India. Anti-clockwise (like the swastika) for feminine Gods and clockwise for masculine Gods. Some say that if the symbol used by the Nazis was reversed, it would have had more symbolic power.
A fact that many, many people are unaware of (we were actually taught about it at school).

 

[7113]

QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 17 Oct 2008, 05:11) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I actually saw in a book, a British Indian Air Force Spitfire with a swastika in the squadron insignia. Not just outside the cockpit as recorded kills.

I believe that the Finnish airforce used it. in the non reversed form, on their aircraft - certainly I have seen Spitfires with the marking.

Regards

 

[Basil]

QUOTE (Doug @ 17 Oct 2008, 00:05) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>You have a point Clive about the issue of removing something that has historical importance. If it goes in France, out of textbooks and out of the public view, how will the kids of today learn what it meant when it was used by the Nazi party?

As some may know, it is actually a very old symbol used in Asia for thousands of years. The symbol can be found over the entrances of temples in India. Anti-clockwise (like the swastika) for feminine Gods and clockwise for masculine Gods. Some say that if the symbol used by the Nazis was reversed, it would have had more symbolic power.

A cathedral up the road from me in Amiens has swastika symbols in the black and white floor tiles. (see info here) Built in the 13th century - nothing sinister there.

It's the connatations these symbols have which cause this (and possibly an understandable reaction). We have a few symbols like this here in Ireland and along certain areas symbols used by factions in the civil war of 1922/23 are still taboo.

nuff said about symbols, the loco looks astounding.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Takeshi]

QUOTE (Brian Considine @ 28 Sep 2008, 19:03) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>My Liliput 05 (Austrian made one) has the swasrika's as well as the Olympic Rings on the tender.

Regards the Hakenkreutz [Swastika] My Liliput 05 came with the instructions as to where to place the included Hakenkreutz and Olympic rings on the locomotive for the 1936 Games for historical authenticity.
I was able to obtain a set of Reich Adlers in HO etched nickel and front eagle cast metal for my FL-4171 Black Fleischmann 03.10.
Some time ago I added pictures of it on Photobucket.
Never felt any qualms about the Era 11 period authenticity on my models.I do remember the doodlebugs the Anderson shelters and other wartime stuff.
Spent 2 years in Herford Germany also.
Regards.
PS.To my Japanese and Chinese friends it is a normal temple symbol which has been mentioned in previous posts.

 

[Takeshi]

QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 28 Sep 2008, 03:06) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I do remember discussing this a year or so ago and the swastika is banned in Germany and does not appear on any models (although there is a Liliput {Austrian owned by Chinese company} BR05 which has it).

I model Epoch II and I can live without it.

I think that you will find that the original Austrian Liliput company is now owned by UK Bachmann and they produce most of the Liliput European range which includes a lot of Era ll models in China for the German market.
I don't think the red 05 is available with the swastikas or Olympic rings nowadays.It may not include the eagles either.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE (Nozomi @ 23 Oct 2008, 15:48) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think that you will find that the original Austrian Liliput company is now owned by UK Bachmann and they produce most of the Liliput European range which includes a lot of Era ll models in China for the German market.
I don't think the red 05 is available with the swastikas or Olympic rings nowadays. It may not include the eagles either.
And aren't Bachmann owned by a Chinese company Kader?

The Br05 doesn't have the eagles either, or at least mine doesn't

 

[pedromorgan]

thats a fantastic looking loco.

I am working on a german cab forward at the moment that has castings for the swastikas. i asume that this was to leave it to the builder weather to fit them or now.

i will be fitting them. as i was reading this thread i was trying to think about why i had made that decision. i had decided to fit them without ever really thinking about it. i dont think i will just be fitting them for accuracy's sake but to me, that period is history. we should learn from it and never let it happen again, but i dont think we should brush it under the carpet either and pretend it never existed by putting squares under the eagles. there were hundreds of thousands of victims in that period of history. will it make any difference to anything if the swastika was allowed to be displayed in the countries where its currently banned? hiding them is not going to bring the victims back.

Once again i am very impressed with the way this subject has been discussed on this forum. i used to use modelrailroader forum where any mention of this subject would inevitably end up with an anti-war, anti-Bush bunfight and the topic would be removed the next day!

I think i have shown them on this forum before but it was some time ago, here are some pictures of the imperial war museums model of aushwitz.
its a very large and very well detailed model of the ramp area of the concentration camp. including figures. but the whole model is sprayed white. its a really fascinating model to look at. the white paint gives it haunting look but also it anonymisis (is that a word?) the figures. they are not miniture people they are just figures. they have no identity. just as they didnt at the real camp. i think its a fantastically dignified model. i regard it as one of the best models i have ever seen. it would undoubtably upset some but i would be happy to see this model at an exhibition.

Peter

 

[john woodall]

I suppose something we don't really think about is the shear size of these things and the model represents this really well. I think who ever commissioned it showed a huge amount of courage, and really does need to be congratulated.

I remember when I visited Dachau and on the train from central Munich there were a whole lot of school children making a lot of noise. When we got to Dachau they were already there, and very quiet. Dachau is a quiet sombre place of reflection. A sad indictment of world history, but something that did happened. I suppose that as modellers of trains that we are slightly more aware of the railways roll in it than say what happened in Asia in the 1960's and 1970's.

Personally I think it is a personal choice. I model the DRG 1928 - 1932 so on my layout there is no military connotations at all, but that being said I have never been into tank building. Prieser however do make some really good horse drawn equipment for this period. I do however have a couple of WWII wagons running on my layout. In 1942 the DRG built some heavy duty 6 axel flat wagons to move tanks. I find the wagon fascinating and have a couple on my layout, one transport a bell (for the Dresden cathedral) and an empty one.

While the railway transport to the concentration camps is something I have not researched, as a historic model I think it is well done in terms of the train. My understanding is that the train would have been made up of more landerbahn (flattish roof boxcars) rather than the newer standard built (round roof) boxcars. However, I think that there are too many baggage cars in the train.

 

[Takeshi]

QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 23 Oct 2008, 06:23) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And aren't Bachmann owned by a Chinese company Kader?

The Br05 doesn't have the eagles either, or at least mine doesn't

Kader was the manufacturer for going back to Aifix,GMR Mainline et al in Hong Kong.For example the Mainline GWR Collett 60' coaches were very good for the times.
They owned all the manufacturing tools/equipment.As you say I think they own Bachmann now and aren't they the largest "toy" manufacturers in the world?

 

[Basil]

QUOTE (pedromorgan @ 23 Oct 2008, 07:53) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>thats a fantastic looking loco.

I am working on a german cab forward at the moment that has castings for the swastikas. i asume that this was to leave it to the builder weather to fit them or now.

i will be fitting them. as i was reading this thread i was trying to think about why i had made that decision. i had decided to fit them without ever really thinking about it. i dont think i will just be fitting them for accuracy's sake but to me, that period is history. we should learn from it and never let it happen again, but i dont think we should brush it under the carpet either and pretend it never existed by putting squares under the eagles. there were hundreds of thousands of victims in that period of history. will it make any difference to anything if the swastika was allowed to be displayed in the countries where its currently banned? hiding them is not going to bring the victims back.

Once again i am very impressed with the way this subject has been discussed on this forum. i used to use modelrailroader forum where any mention of this subject would inevitably end up with an anti-war, anti-Bush bunfight and the topic would be removed the next day!

I think i have shown them on this forum before but it was some time ago, here are some pictures of the imperial war museums model of aushwitz.
its a very large and very well detailed model of the ramp area of the concentration camp. including figures. but the whole model is sprayed white. its a really fascinating model to look at. the white paint gives it haunting look but also it anonymisis (is that a word?) the figures. they are not miniture people they are just figures. they have no identity. just as they didnt at the real camp. i think its a fantastically dignified model. i regard it as one of the best models i have ever seen. it would undoubtably upset some but i would be happy to see this model at an exhibition.

Peter

lest we forget

What a model. Quite surreal and disturbing

but based on the reality.

Modelling is about historical reality and censoring symbols makes little sense.

Thanks for the photos

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE (Nozomi @ 24 Oct 2008, 03:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Kader was the manufacturer for going back to Aifix,GMR Mainline et al in Hong Kong.For example the Mainline GWR Collett 60' coaches were very good for the times.
They owned all the manufacturing tools/equipment.As you say I think they own Bachmann now and aren't they the largest "toy" manufacturers in the world?
They must be very close to the top if they aren't.

With the concentration camp model it's all about context. This layout was from the Imperial War museum and served a purpose to inform. So it's acceptable.

However if I went round to someone's house I had just met at the pub or something and they had a model like this in their loft or garage I would be a bit disturbed. Makes me think of the Father Ted episode where he invited all the Chinese people back from the pub after convincing them he wasn't a racist only to find Mrs Doyle had decorated the house in Nazi regalia he inherited from the dodgy priest who was hiding the war criminal. How do you explain that sort of interest?