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The British don't seem to care where their models are made as long as they are top quality. See the latest Model Rail review where a comparison is made of identical models by different manufacturers with one sourced in Europe and the other in China.

What would be the views of Marklin collectors if Marklin models made in China were of superior quality and finish and with superior detail to the same models formerly made in Germany?

Does "Made in Germany" still have any kudos in this globalised world and does it matter where the model is sourced from if the quality is right and in keeping with the company image?

Chris Leigh in his Model Rail editorial makes reference to models coming from halfway around the world in his editorial about green credential's. He also claims that todays tools are rubbish and last one job. There was a time when a tool was for life but no longer aparently.

Marklin models are considered to be for life. Would they be if they were produced halfway around the world?

And would you be infuenced if model packaging had a carbon footprint code with green being good and red being bad?

Models made in china would probably be red and in Europe green.

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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I wouldn't have a problem if it were made in China but the quality were just as good or better. I think many Marklin collectors would have more difficulty.

Scalextric quality improved after they moved to China so there might be a different starting point. Not sure how Hornby quality has been affected.
 

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QUOTE (Gary @ 21 May 2007, 12:14) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Does "Made in Germany" still have any kudos in this globalised world and does it matter where the model is sourced from if the quality is right and in keeping with the company image?

Chris Leigh in his Model Rail editorial makes reference to models coming from halfway around the world in his editorial about green credential's. He also claims that todays tools are rubbish and last one job. There was a time when a tool was for life but no longer aparently.

Marklin models are considered to be for life. Would they be if they were produced halfway around the world?
Happy modelling
Gary

Having spent some time in Germany & met many German modellers & "Marklin People" on their own ground the phrase "Made in German" means a lot - a hell of a lot !

I would be inclined to agree with the comment regarding the life of injection moulding tools.

I hate to say it but IMHO I don't honestly think that models produced on the other side of the world will last anything like old Marklin, Fleischmann, Roco........
 

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QUOTE (Gary @ 21 May 2007, 12:14) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Would they be if they were produced halfway around the world?
And would you be infuenced if model packaging had a carbon footprint code with green being good and red being bad?
Models made in china would probably be red and in Europe green.
It's a bit like cars, if they are designed in Germany, the parts made in China and shipped to Eastern Europe for assembly before being sold in the UK, just where was the car 'made'? Assembled in Europe? Made in China? Designed in Europe?

Also perhaps the actual model is made in Europe so it has a small carbon footprint to the UK, but what if a single sub-component is made in China and so was shipped here at higher carbon cost? Also let us remember that items such as models will probably be sent in bulk by ship which is very kind on the enviroment in comparison to using trucks or cars or the worst possible case: air. I think it is easy to confuse reducing our personal carbon emissions by not flying on holiday and not driving a car and turning devices off standby with the negligible emissions of a small plastic and metal model! Cars and flying are what we should be worrying about, not whether our latest train has a non-zero wheelprint!

I for example would like to support our European neighbours who share our culture and values, but if the quality from China is high enough and I ignore human rights abuses and the price is right, I would consider buying something made there. I suppose this is because I am a non-German buying German, so it doesn't matter quite so much where the item is made, but if I were German I would obviously value the idea that I was supporting my brothers and sisters.

Goedel
 

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QUOTE (goedel @ 21 May 2007, 23:32) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>... if I were German I would obviously value the idea that I was supporting my brothers and sisters.

Goedel

Note that my latest purchase is - again - made by Gützold. A small family business located in the Ore Mountains in Saxony/Germany (where toys are made since around the year 1600). They make their trains in their Saxonian factory, not in China.

Buying Chinese goods kills jobs here. Although I admit to having a few engines made in China, I am not willing to buy any more models made in the Far East, no matter how "good" they are.
 

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QUOTE The British don't seem to care where their models are made as long as they are top quality. But they aren't though. There is no British model maker that makes top quality models. There is always some area which detracts from their quality whether it be poor build quality, weak motor, rubbish decoder, etc. These limitations are imposed by budget.

QUOTE What would be the views of Marklin collectors if Marklin models made in China were of superior quality and finish and with superior detail to the same models formerly made in Germany? My understanding is that a lot of Maerklin components are already made in China, this may well increase.

Made in Germany counts for a lot as they have a good reputation. Once "made in England" had the same conotations.

I don't mind too much if the quality remains as high as it is. After all the high quality is why I took up Continental and US modelling in the first place.
 

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QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 21 May 2007, 23:55) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>After all the high quality is why I took up Continental ... modelling in the first place.
Me too. It doesn't help the horror stories you hear on this very forum about decoder fitting even very recent Hornby releases (with their bits that fall off) and shows that the UK is still years behind Europe and many European models hardly cost more. You can buy a second hand Roco model from fifteen years ago off eBay with more detail and a better drive that the current stuff a lot of the never-had-it-so-good fruitcakes are waxing lyrical about...

There are model train companies like Roco and there are toy companies like Hornby.

Goedel
 

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There are model train companies like Roco and there are toy companies like Hornby.

Goedel
[/quote]

Perhaps true but Roco were recently bankrupt whereas Hornby are making millions!

I think on the Continent in general people buy more for nationalistic reasons rather than value for money. Take cars for example: What percentage of the French market is French made? Doesn't make them the best cars though! Who would buy a merc or Beamer over a Lexus? They do in Europe and not because they are better!
 

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QUOTE Who would buy a merc or Beamer over a Lexus? Me, why would anyone want a lexus?
A toyota with a hefty price tag.

A BMW is an excellent car to drive. A lexus is like a pedal car by comparison.


As regards the Roco Hornby statement there is a difference between quality of product and quality of management, Hornby have a very high quality of management whereas Roco have a very high quality of product. Just shows you that there is more to succeeding in business than having a good product. Good management skills are far more important as you can get by with a mediocre product better than you can with a mediocre manager.
 

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QUOTE (ozwarrior @ 22 May 2007, 02:12) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Perhaps true but Roco were recently bankrupt whereas Hornby are making millions!
Exactly! Model before profit is best for modellers... Those millions Hornby makes that you mention are hardly a good thing! Surely they just show how much Hornby are compromising on quality...and how many modellers are Hornby shareholders?!

QUOTE (ozwarrior @ 22 May 2007, 02:12) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Who would buy a merc or Beamer over a Lexus?
Everyone?!

Talking of cars, look at UK car manufacturers! Rover managed to go bankrupt and didn't even have a high quality product as an excuse like Roco!!

Goedel
 

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Are we loosing sight of value for money?

How can we knock Hornby when their top range models are of the order of £80 on the shelves?

The Hornby budget is imposed on Hornby by what the British modeller is prepared to pay. Not by any self imposed restriction of Hornby.

Hornby have always offered excellent value for money and their success is surely driven by this. Lets not forget Bachmann who also have a good profitable business.

What this thread does seem to suggest is that mainland European modellers are (rightly or wrongly) more concerned about where their models are produced than those in the UK or America and whilst this is the case it is difficult to see how European modellers will ever benefit from the incredible value offered to modellers in the UK and America.

And we seem to have forgotten how Hornby models were 15 years ago by comparison with those of today. What could Marklin models be like in 15 years time if they moved their manufacturering to China?


Happy modelling
Gary
 

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Nature lovers wishing to see exotic wild life should visit MRF where in the evenings , from the safety of your own computer screen, you can see the trolls gambol in the fields about Margate....
 

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QUOTE (ozwarrior @ 22 May 2007, 03:12) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Perhaps true but Roco were recently bankrupt whereas Hornby are making millions!

Question is, why did Roco go bankrupt. It was because their CEO at the time, Mr Maegdefrau, wanted Roco to play in one league with Märklin, sales-wise, yet turn out better, more detailed models that are very close to brass engines. The BBÖ class 310, the DB cllass 03.10, the "Bundesheer" (Austrian Army) Taurus are good examples of this. However, Roco relied strongly on the German market, which was in an economic downturn at the time, and only few modellers bought the engine. Being top brass, Mr Maegdefrau then did about the stupidest thing a CEO can possibly do - he cut down on quality control, and on R+D (and moved to a newly-built facility in Rif/Austria, which cost a couple of million Euros as well). The lack of quality made continental modellers become rather wary of the brand, until Roco´s bank stopped the entire operation and took over under the new name, Modelleisenbahn GmbH, and tragiccally had to fight Mr Maegdefrau in court because he (still) claims to have done nothing wrong. Roco models, as far as I´ve heard from folks who have bben there, are now produced in Slovenia, and the partly assembled parts are then sent across the border to Austria on a conveyor belt for final assembly. Note that both countries are EU members.

I can see no comparison at all to Hornby here, where good people in Margate/UK had been laid off, and the Hornby moulds were sent to China, where they now produce the models. As far as Hornby is concerned, yes, I am a bit critical of them as imho the Hornby-Rivarossi, H.-Lima, H.-Jouef and H.-Arnold quality has deteriorated in a way that can only be called dramatic, compared to the original brands that produced in Italy, France, and Germany.

QUOTE (ozwarrior @ 22 May 2007, 03:12) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think on the Continent in general people buy more for nationalistic reasons rather than value for money.

Buddy, you know zilch about "the Continent". If that were true, I´d personally be modelling Prussia rather than a Saxonian/Bavarian border station around 1913. Me, I wouldn´t be riding around in a Renault car, and dreaming of my next car being an Alfa Romeo
(don´t tell my gf). I guess we do want the jobs and production lines to remain in Europe, by buying European, but nationalism? No.

QUOTE (ozwarrior @ 22 May 2007, 03:12) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Take cars for example: What percentage of the French market is French made? Doesn't make them the best cars though!

My Clio is just fine. To quench your rant: how many continental European countries even MAKE cars? Let´s see (major brands only): Spain: VW/SEAT. Czech Rep.:VW/Skoda. Sweden: Saab/Volvo. Netherlands: (few) Volvos (former DAF plant). Italy: Fiat, Alfa Romeo. France: Renault, Peugeot, Citroen. Germany: Ford, VW, Mercedes, BMW, Opel, Audi. Austria, Belgium, Portugal, Denmark, Greece - zilch. So, chances are that ANYWHERE on the continent you will see German, French or Italian cars, rather than the rest. No nationalism, pure probability calculations. I´ve been to france several times, and I´m astonished how popular the VW Golf and the Fiat Punto are there. Besides, you are aware of Renault plants in Turkey, where they make the Megane convertible and station wagon, for example? However, I can get Renault service in any small french town in the Alps, where no other brand is available, so that´d be my first choice if I lived there. On the other hand, I can get VW service on any minute Baltic island in Germany, so go figure.

QUOTE (ozwarrior @ 22 May 2007, 03:12) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Who would buy a merc or Beamer over a Lexus? They do in Europe and not because they are better!

Oh, but they ARE better. In terms of performance, total cost of operation, reliability (if a BMW breaks down, you can call BMW and have your car towed to the next town with a BMW dealer for repair, if a Lexus breaks down, you have to go look for a Toyota dealer, and are lucky if his mechanics have even seen a Lexus before - there´s way more BMW dealers than there are Lexus joints), the design is original and not the copycat-ersatz-3-class-saloon Lexus offers, and resale value of a Benz or a BMW is way (!!!) higher than that of a Lexus. And I haven´t even touched the subject of the nimbus surrounding the three brands.
 

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QUOTE (Gary @ 22 May 2007, 10:39) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>...it is difficult to see how European modellers will ever benefit from the incredible value offered to modellers in the UK and America.

Gary,

I´ve seen this value when a friend needed a spare part for his FS E-402 engine, and couldn´t get it. He had to return the engine to my dealer, got a refund, but was left with no engine. When I buy German, or Austrian, I can call the manufacturer and try to get the spare - chances are 100% at Gützold or Piko-Standard (NOT Hobby, these are made in China!), around 85% at Roco or Fleischmann, and some 75% at Trix. If I have trouble with a digital decoder, I cann call the manufaturer for help. Albeit the engine itself is made in China, I could call Brawa about which brake hoses to mount on my Bavarian G4/5H; as R+D was done in Germany, I got connected to an R+D person responsible for this engine who answered my question and told me stuff about the real Westinghouse (earlier) and Knorr (later) brakes that I didn´t yet know .

To me, value is not just the price. It is also the service that surrounds the product, the feeling of being on the safe side if something breaks or goes wrong. The possibility of being able to ask for advice. And knowing that my Piko, or Gützold engines are a well thought out product, wwhere they thought about fitting digital decoders right from the start, where they don´t make me disassemble the entire engine to change a light bulb because they nticipated that right from the start. Chinese-developed products, like those from Bachmann-Liliput, don´t offer that, which is why I´ll stay clear of their engines. Brawa, as I´ve learned, is different as they develop their engines in Germany and have them assembled in China - you can see the difference.
 

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I wouldn't have commented in this thread , but as it seems to have headed into familiar territory of "put the boot into British modelling" , and as people might assume I advocated postions I don't ..

ME26-06
QUOTE Question is, why did Roco go bankrupt. It was because their CEO at the time, Mr Maegdefrau, wanted Roco to play in one league with Märklin, sales-wise, yet turn out better, more detailed models that are very close to brass engines. The BBÖ class 310, the DB cllass 03.10, the "Bundesheer" (Austrian Army) Taurus are good examples of this. However, Roco relied strongly on the German market, which was in an economic downturn at the time, and only few modellers bought the engine. Being top brass, Mr Maegdefrau then did about the stupidest thing a CEO can possibly do - he cut down on quality control, and on R+D (and moved to a newly-built facility in Rif/Austria, which cost a couple of million Euros as well). The lack of quality made continental modellers become rather wary of the brand, until Roco´s bank stopped the entire operation and took over under the new name

Interesting. My big criticism of the German manufacturers is that they have gone in this direction of "better, more detailed models that are very close to brass engines", resulting in extremely expensive models which are too expensive for the market to bear , resulting in low volume sales: "only few modellers bought the engine." I don't think the so-called "museum-quality" limited edition , at an eyewatering price and which no-one dare weather, is a healthy phenomenon. I'm glad we don't see it in Britain

But please note this is aside from where the models are produced. Heljan are a European producer. Their models are not obviously more accurate or to a higher specification than the latest Bachmann and Hornby. They have made mistakes. But nobody has found any fault with either their OO cl 35 Hymek or their new class 27. Both models have an RRP just under £80 - say 120 euros

By contrast we had another thread discussing a prestigeous new Marklin boxed set new release of the Etoile du Nord. The loco, an SNCF multivoltage C-C electric , has a list price of 295 euros. By the time that gets to France, the importer's cut (not a eurocent of which goes to pay salaries in Goppingen) will push the price in the French shop window to 365 euros. The coach packs are 395 euros each - almost 100 euros a coach

I think Heljan's approach is much more beneficial to the hobby than that Marklin boxed set. I certainly don't see that the Marklin loco should be 3 times the price of the Heljan one. Remember both are European made , and we are comparing prices in the country of the prototype (which in both cases is diffiernt from the country of the producer)

I must admit I'd always suspected the Lokmaus had played a significant role in Roco's downfall. The sets are blatently loss leaders , designed to generate follow up sales where Roco would make their money. I doubt the follow on sales happened. In the UK , people bought the sets to get the Lokmaus and dumped the stock and track. We still have most of a Roco digital set lying around the club room getting in the way of the new OO layout - the US group bought it 5 years ago to go DCC cheaply and ditched the rest. I've heard that in Germany people bought the sets for the stock then flogged off the unwanted Lokmaus on eBay. Neither scenario can have done any good to Roco's bottom line

As far as Hornby and the Rivarossi group are concerned , I suspect ME20-06 and I are seeing completely different stories. Hornby did not buy Rivarossi- they bought Rivarossi's pile of tooling, which they have only just got back into production. They will not have any stocks of spares for the HO/N products , especially where production of an item has only just started, and they probably don't have a properly established dealer network on the Continent yet. The don't actually have any obligations to support owners of Rivarossi locos bought in the old days - they bought the tools not Rivarossi and its liabilities

In the UK Hornby are a long established business ,as they are not in Germany. Hornby spares are available from various sources , though the range and availability is not as comprehensive as it was. I've successfully sourced Networker bogies and Mk4 interiors for a project recently - on the other hand I haven't sourced a power coupling for a Pacer. The Pacer's been out of the catalogue for 5 years and was only briefly fitted with a power coupling

Lima in the UK was not a quality range . The new Chinese produced Hornby class 60 is a superb model and no-one has found fault except perhaps that the oval sprung buffers sometimes rotate. It has all wheel pick up, a 5 pole centre motor (and no it is not a Type 7 motor which Traingman loves to call a "cheap throwaway motor) and both bogies are driven. It weights 800g . It is DCC ready. It has lights. It has seethrough raditor grills with interior detail . (Not for nothing are 60's nicknamed doughnuts). It has NEM362 pockets. It's as good as it gets in UK diesels

Lima did a 60 over a decade ago. It had none of these things - it featured a crude 3 pole "pancake " motor bogie , picked up from 2 wheels on each side , and had massive tension locks . It was about half the weight , relied on traction tyres to haul a load , the standard of finish was much lower , and the tooling less detailed. Whether what detail there was was accurate I'm not sure - it often wasn't with Lima. Wheels were crude and heavy

As for finishing - in my local model shop there's a Lima Midland Mainline HST train pack hanging about. I won't be buying it - its the first batch where they forgot to spray one of the colours. Self coloured plastic was a favourite Lima trick .I suppose it saved the cost of a coat of paint....

Hornby have re-released the Lima 156 - one of Lima's best efforts. I've got one. They've replaced the big 3 pole pancake with a compact new 5 -pole motor bogie with decent wheels. The model now has 8 wheel pick up, not 2+2. It's DCC ready - Lima weren't. It runs very nicely - smoothly, slowly and without stalling at pointwork. The quality of the livery application and finish is superb. It still has a large black box where the underframe detail should be - typical Lima

It's not in the same class as Bachmanns splendid new 108 DMU, with a level of detail we've not seen before, a very smooth mechanism (crawls at speed step 1 on 128), lights etc. Both retail for the same price - £60-75 depending where you shop. No doubt rb277170 would consider the Hornby model grossly overpriced - but how much is the Flieschmann Desiro? 300 euros??

There have been repeated suggestions that Lima's British range were to a substantially lower standard than everything else Rivarossi offered for every other market . It has been suggested this is all the fault of British modellers for not complaining loudly enough. My observation was that the original Lima importer , RIKO , was pretty uninterested in British modellers views. When former Lima staff turn up behind Vi-Trains, proclaiming their Lima background in their ads, and offer a 37 not quite as good as Bachmann at a very similar price, it's easy to see why people don't want to cut them much slack.

QUOTE Albeit the engine itself is made in China, I could call Brawa about which brake hoses to mount on my Bavarian G4/5H; as R+D was done in Germany, I got connected to an R+D person responsible for this engine who answered my question and told me stuff about the real Westinghouse (earlier) and Knorr (later) brakes that I didn´t yet know .

This is much closer to the pattern of Hornby and Bachmann in the UK - although I doubt either quite has Brawa's level of scholarship. Both Hornby & Bachmann do their R+D in the UK and have a stand at all the major shows. Neither Lima nor Vi-Trains do . (Heljan are of course Danish , but they do have a stand at the biggest show)

As far as cars are concerned , Britian actually runs a trade suplus on automotive (Its easy to forget Nissan at Sunderland, Toyota at Derby, Honda at Swindon, Ford , BMW, etc) . I have this dreadful sense that every car made in Britain is exported and every car driven in Britian is imported...

I don't think this has been a very constructive thread. I sense that because of the endless bickering, outsiders get a very negative view of British modelling and British models from here . When the assertions on which that very negative view is based range from the selective to the distorted to the outright untrue , it worries me - because this is one of the main public forums for the hobby in Britain , and it looks like a pretty poor shop window

As a final point I don't think a loss making manufacturer with falling sales is a good thing. There's the well-known story of how after Airfix folded 20 years ago, David Boyle , who went on to found Dapol , personally witnessed the old Kitmaster tools being taken out of the factory and smashed with a sledgehammer before dispatch to the scrapmerchant. Anyone want to see that happen to LGB's tooling ?
 

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Some good points raised. I don't think we'll ever see the end of this question. While there continues to be a wish to buy products that are made in the USA I think most have given up trying. Now as far as locomotives go brass has always considered to represent the top end and they all came from Asia so people are use to that.

I am though interested in seeing if I can lay my hands on a Gutzold locomotive when I stop of in Germany in September.
 

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QUOTE (Ravenser @ 22 May 2007, 14:29) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>...As far as Hornby and the Rivarossi group are concerned , I suspect ME20-06 and I are seeing completely different stories. Hornby did not buy Rivarossi- they bought Rivarossi's pile of tooling, which they have only just got back into production. They will not have any stocks of spares for the HO/N products , especially where production of an item has only just started, and they probably don't have a properly established dealer network on the Continent yet. The don't actually have any obligations to support owners of Rivarossi locos bought in the old days - they bought the tools not Rivarossi and its liabilities
...

Hi Ravenser,

I think I´ve been misunderstood - Rivarossi et al went broke, lingered for some time, and their moulds (and distribution channels?) were bought by Hornby, moulds sent to China, and some (not all!) models are being made today in China. Of course, they have no obligation towards the customers of "old" Rivarossi.

However, my friend´s engine was made by "new" Hornbyrossi, and if they don´t stock spares for their modlels that are made in China, that fact to me casts a shadow on the "new" Hornby (Continental) products. This having been said, I´m still looking for an "old" Rivarossi Bavarian Gt 2x4/4 engine...

Please do understand that I have rather limited knowledge of British outline modelling, so my remarks are solely aimed at Hornby´s continental products, plus DCC fitting problems etc. which I read about on this fprum. In no way did I want to express that continental modelling is "better" than British outline; as far as I´m concerned, there is no "better", only "suits me more" opposed to "suits me less". I had and have no intention whatsoever in badmouthing British outline models, or their makers, let alone those modellers who buy them.

One word about Heljan: when you look at their 1/87th scale engines and cars, these are much priceyer than the 00 engines they make. However, my DSB MY engine is still "Made in Denmark".

Last remark about Roco, their models were great, however, they were released when Germany´s economy was ailing, and consumers were very unhappy to spend their money, so Roco got whacked by conditions they could not influence, and they were highly dependent on the German market. You may notice that today, as this episode is (hopefully) over, the more detailled, priceyer engines are again in high demand.
 

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QUOTE (Dennis David @ 22 May 2007, 15:20) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I am though interested in seeing if I can lay my hands on a Gutzold locomotive when I stop of in Germany in September.


Where exactly are you going? And what model(s) would you be interested in?

Some have been reviewed on www.miba.de, click "Teststrecke".
 

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Oh how I love these threads.

You learn alot. Specially if you are a modeler outside the big 3. (Germany, USA and Britian.)

At the end of the day we keep saying its a hobby but forget to imply that its not a cheap hobby. I do want to own a MikroMetakit or a Brawa loco but....you know the story....wife, kids etc.

Before the advent of the internet there were two brands in Turkey. Lima and Maerklin. Both entered the market with startsets.
The usual AC/DC saga. People who had Maerklins still is continuing with Maerklin. Lima? Ceased to exist. Lima owners (DC people) were left in a limbo state.

It may sound funny, but here in Turkey, there is a very large contingency of railroad modellers modeling British OO outline.

Quote :As regards the Roco Hornby statement there is a difference between quality of product and quality of management, Hornby have a very high quality of management whereas Roco have a very high quality of product. Just shows you that there is more to succeeding in business than having a good product. Good management skills are far more important as you can get by with a mediocre product better than you can with a mediocre manager Neil S wood. Unquote

It all started out with a very clever guy full of enthusiasm towards all sorts of hobbies. He started off with being the representative of Scalextric race cars. It was a huge success. You all know who owns Scalextric. Seeing the market as it is they made a deal with this guy such that if a British citizen is buying an X Hornby product for, lets say 10 quid in Britain so are we in Turkey. Now this is called managerial success in my book.

This increased the rate of newcomers to this hobby and infact filled in the gap where Lima left. Sales soared. There is one FLM dealer and one Maerklin dealer in Turkey. Both, their selling prices are double the amount of European prices ! Doing a lot of harm to this hobby.

This guy is now the representative of all Bachmann products ( excl. trains.) Woodland , Liliput etc and lately became the rep of ESU.

I simply admire Hornbys strategy that they took over here. It became a win win situation.

Roco wanted to enter the market thru this guy as well. They came over. Two days were spent with intensive negotiations. He wanted the same conditions as Hornby. i.e if a product is sold at lets say 200 euros in Germany or Austria then the end users here should be able to buy at the same level. We asked them a simple question. How many Locos or products are you selling to Turkey? Answer is : none. Then wouldn't it be plus to Roco if they sold at least something. Something is better than null in a new and growing market.

The deal didn't work out. Who do you think won at the end of the day?

Baykal
 
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