[goedel]

Hello again,

After foolishly (for my bank balance!!) unleashing a passion for German steam with a Minitrix DRG BR 03.10 in steel blue for the Rheingold I have now gone and done it again, with perhaps the most brilliant of all steam locomotive designs:

Minitrix 12249 - K.Bay.Sts.B. S 3/6 no. 3618 painted in a special blue livery for the Brussels Exhibition in 1910...

It is a fantastic model, with nicely darkened wheel rims and the new and much quieter motor in the boiler. After installing a C.T.Elektronik DCX75DN decoder in the tender and turning off BEMF it runs fantastically - so now I need some coaches to match, but of course none do as it was a special one off livery!! Presumably (hopefully!) the locomotive would have run around for a few years in this livery before being repainted into a shade of green and so would have been seen on most express trains in Bavaria at the time.

I think the locomotive would look super with the Minitrix epoch II Rheingold coaches but of course that would be an 18 year discrepancy at least (Rheingold Express only operated from 1928). Therefore going back to epoch I what would go with this? There are some other very nice Minitrix coaches from the correct time period, namely these:

But is there perhaps something more suitable out there? Most N scale is not in production at any time and searching through hundreds of hits in the spurweite-n database for K.Bay.Sts.B., or did I mean K.B.Sts.B. or perhaps KBayStsB or even KBayStB would be rather painful but I believe Fleischmann and Arnold would be the other manufacturers to consider?

This is pushing it a bit too, but I wonder if the 3819 in blue made it over the border to Salzburg and beyond, and what sort of train would it have pulled then? Any help with the models or the prototype greatly appreciated!

And to those who are umming and aahhing over a Minitrix S 3/6 (the new versions) then let me say that as long as it arrives with all the detail parts present on the loco or at least in the box then you won't be disappointed!

 

[Brian Considine]

I have seen some N Gauge CIWL coaches in a blue livery that looked the same type as the HO ones recently announced, so there are some in blue but I really don't know if they would be correct.

 

[ME 26-06]

(ahem)

The S3/6 was introduced because the earlier S3/5 and S2/5 couldn´t handle the ever heavier express trains, particularly to the Bavarian and Palatine tourist destinations, any more.

These tourist trains were not necessarily entirely made up of Bavarian coaches. You could use the Ep. I Prussian coaches (the four axle version) alongside some vintage Arnold Wurttemberg coaches and - for 1910! - the three-axle Bavarian coaches (of which a Prussian version is also available).

Whether these engines went past Salzburg is doubtful, but they did ride Saxonian rails on through trains.

Too bad no Saxonian coaches are available in N; the Dresden - Munich trains were regularly equipped with S3/6 engines.

Keep in mind the regulations in power back then: a baggage car is required between the engine and the train. Usually, these pre-WW1 express trains had two baggage cars, one up front and one being the last car.

Have you seen the Hobbytrain Badonian IVh yet? it is blue, too, and the second series models are said to be flawless...

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE Keep in mind the regulations in power back then: a baggage car is required between the engine and the train. Usually, these pre-WW1 express trains had two baggage cars, one up front and one being the last car.

Oh, I didn't know that. I may have to go and see if Modelbahn Kramm still have these on special and get a second one.

I have the Roco S3/6 which is green so I was fortunate in having the appropriate coaches availabel to go with it. I may have to buy another S3/6 though to go with the new set of Rheingold coaches

 

[john woodall]

Well the regulations were actually that a non passenger carrying vehicle need to be between the locomotive and the first passenger car. This could either be a box car (the three axel Stettin box cars were actually built for this role, but not until 1922!) but more likely to be a Pw or Post wagon.

In relation to a Pw at either end of the train, this was not the case in most instances. It was to speed up the turn around times at terminal stations (Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Munich etc), hence why the luxury trains generally had two Pw's. But like everything no rule without exception!

As far as train make up goes, the S 3/6 would have pulled express trains and the chances of a train being built with exclusively one railways cars would IMHO be somewhat remote. Similarly by 1910, I would have expected that the mixing of 3 axel cars with 4 axel cars in express trains would also have been pretty remote.

If you are going to build a train that ran from Munich to Salzberg, I would expect that you would have a majority of Bavarian and Prussian coaches and one or two from the Wuut, Sachs, Baden etc. The last three would likely be ABC, or BC. The Bayern and Prussian could be just about anything but in a 9 coach train you would need at least 3 C's. Passenger train constructions is such fun!

Cheers

John

Not trying to be a rivit counter

 

[goedel]

QUOTE (Brian Considine @ 9 Jun 2008, 22:14) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I have seen some N Gauge CIWL coaches in a blue livery that looked the same type as the HO ones recently announced, so there are some in blue but I really don't know if they would be correct.
Thanks for that suggestion, I've seen them too now you remind me!

QUOTE (ME 26-06 @ 9 Jun 2008, 22:50) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>These tourist trains were not necessarily entirely made up of Bavarian coaches. You could use the Ep. I Prussian coaches (the four axle version) alongside some vintage Arnold Wurttemberg coaches and - for 1910! - the three-axle Bavarian coaches (of which a Prussian version is also available). Keep in mind the regulations in power back then: a baggage car is required between the engine and the train. Usually, these pre-WW1 express trains had two baggage cars, one up front and one being the last car.
This is useful to know, there are some very nice Fleischmann K.P.E.V. coaches I can think of that would look good!

QUOTE (ME 26-06 @ 9 Jun 2008, 22:50) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Have you seen the Hobbytrain Badonian IVh yet? it is blue, too, and the second series models are said to be flawless...

I managed to see one at an exhibition at the weekend. The handrails looked very smart but the reviews of the first series had put me off - something you have to buy after seeing run in the shop just in case! I suspect eBay will soon have some first series models, but I would definitely like one but alas there isn't much Badonian rolling stock alas in N but perhaps (hopefully) I missed something in the database.

QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 9 Jun 2008, 23:51) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I may have to buy another S3/6 though to go with the new set of Rheingold coaches

I just bought a set of Minitrix epoch II ones from the excellent Herr Kraft and they really are super with the built in table lights. The detail is quite fantastic, and knocks the stuffing out of previous Rheingold offerings!

QUOTE (john woodall @ 10 Jun 2008, 10:54) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If you are going to build a train that ran from Munich to Salzberg, I would expect that you would have a majority of Bavarian and Prussian coaches and one or two from the Wuut, Sachs, Baden etc. The last three would likely be ABC, or BC. The Bayern and Prussian could be just about anything but in a 9 coach train you would need at least 3 C's. Passenger train constructions is such fun!

Not trying to be a rivit counter
Thanks John - count away by all means! It's all useful to know, and being mainly an Epoch IV-V modeller then there's plenty still to find out...

 

[6991]

Actually Goedel, you may be in even more difficulty than you think!

I just had a quick look at what Kramm currently have available, and realistically your choice comes down to one out of the Fleischmann and minitrix lists : namely the Orient Express set just announced from Trix - 23426 at 294 euro, they have also listed two privately owned coaches to go with this set too (23436), quite the thing for the early 20th century tycoon. These would look really good I'd say running together.

However, your biggest problem will be, what am I going to do after 1919? Because, yes, you probably guessed it before, built in 1910 for the Brussels exhibition, delivered to the Bavarian railways in March 1911, then delivered to the French ETAT as reparations in 1919 whence it became ETAT 231-983 !!! There's even a lovely photo of it at the Saintes depot in 1939 in the Eisenbahn Journal Sonderausgabe 2/2002 on 'Die bay. 3/6' .

cheers

6991

 

[6991]

Done a bit more research, Goedel.

Definitely those coaches you show above are in the frame they are minitrix 13715/716/717 if I am not mistaken.

Fleischmann do have some new coaches that fit into the 1/2 grey area, 8870-74

A really nice one I reckon, if you can find it, would be the minitrix Pfalzbahn set from 1914, serial number 15709, it looks really neat and are basically same coaches but slightly lighter green livery than the bavarian ones above. However it is a boxed 4-car set and Schmidt-Wissen has it for 120 Euro.

Like JW, not really a rivet counter but the chimney also looks a bit dodgy, I reckon that 3610 was finished the same as 3602 (Munich Exhibition), i.e. with the squat, almost GWR looking, chimney and thin brassand copper chimney crown. The rest of the class had stovepipes. The 'Caledonian' chimneys started appearing sporadically on the 2 series of 'Hochachsige' with 2m wheels 3624 3632 (March to May 1912) and 3633 to 3641 (August 1912-Jan 1913).

How interesting that the other exhibition locomotive, 3602, also ended up spending the rest of it's life in France (ETAT 231-981) after 1919.

Cheers

6991

 

[goedel]

Hello 6991,

Welcome to the forum if I haven't said so already! What can I say except typical typical typical - I go and buy a locomotive that only nine years was stolen away by light-fingered victors justice, (but then again, just what other locomotive would be at the top of anyones reparations list?!)...

...you can just see the eyes of the French officials lighting up at the sight of one in the depot:

"Hmm, ah yes, we'll have one of those please with the really big wheels, oh and that one too, and we should really go for all of one type to reduce the maintenance costs so we'll have that one also...you don't happen to have any more of them lying about do you? Oh. What to you mean you can't seem to find the rest of them?! Disappeared in a puff of smoke you say? Hmmm..."

...also I didn't realise that the 3618 was sent by Maffei to the exhibition in blue before going to KBayStsB and thus presumably would have arrived with the final customer in green anyway? Perhaps there are some French (!) coaches to consider then....no, I will just have to accept the daft choice of prototype by Minitrix for anything other than a display model!!

In that case general relativity be damned and she shall pull my 1928 Rheingold coaches through a kink in space-time (and under epoch V Austrian catenary of course!!)

Talking of the Pfalzbahn, the S 2/6 from Brawa looks simply delicious...

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE (goedel @ 13 Jun 2008, 07:19) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Talking of the Pfalzbahn, the S 2/6 from Brawa looks simply delicious...

Doesn't it just

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (goedel @ 12 Jun 2008, 21:19) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Talking of the Pfalzbahn, the S 2/6 from Brawa looks simply delicious...
I must be one of the few that don't like it !

Must admit though, it's a fine model.

 

[ME 26-06]

QUOTE (goedel @ 12 Jun 2008, 23:19) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Talking of the Pfalzbahn, the S 2/6 from Brawa looks simply delicious...

Actually, it is simply delicious.

Trust me...

 

[neil_s_wood]

I believe you.

 

[6991]

Goedel,

Seeing that lovely S 2/6 shows what I mean with the chimney, if you lose the aerodynamics and take about 10 real ccm off the height, that would look like the chimney on 3602, and I reckon 3618 would look similar.

Crazily, the chimneys were really different, even the some of the DRG series from 1930 had stovepipes. As an example, 18 545 (later rebuilt to 18 624) was running with a tall stovepipe in 1937, 3630 from the first 'Hochachsige' series had a Urie stovepipe! i.e. short LSWR style to begin with. Clearly, the Caledonian style was not fitted to all.

Phil