[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (TonyDaly @ 22 Jul 2008, 18:05) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Has anyone tried or does anyone have any knowledge of this item ? Looks like a big version of the MASTERswitch.

***This item has been on sale for several years with only moderate success due to its cost and 8 point limit.

It'd be more correct to say that they are actually quite different in core design and concept, however MASTERswitch is a more recent, more flexible and significantly more cost effective product.

Richard
DCCconcepts

 

[zmil]

Hi All
I'll have to look at the master switch now!
There are so many good products out there
I used the good old Fleischmann push buttons on our last layout but I've sold most off those now.
Still I can plan for a while longer yet , But my plans are getting smaller!
Regards Zmil

 

[TonyDaly]

QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 22 Jul 2008, 10:33) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>***This item has been on sale for several years with only moderate success due to its cost and 8 point limit.

It'd be more correct to say that they are actually quite different in core design and concept, however MASTERswitch is a more recent, more flexible and significantly more cost effective product.

Richard
DCCconcepts

Hi Richard.
I didn't realise that it was out for a while. Could be quite expensive if you had a large collection of points. MASTERswitch as you say is more modern & definitely more cost effective.

 

[Basil]

QUOTE (Expat @ 22 Jul 2008, 07:44) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thanks zmil. Nice piece of kit but I was hoping to do something a little cheaper.

I would need 5 of those units to operate my 34 sets of points which would set me back A$850.

Cheers,

Expat.

Expat,

I am in the process of drawingup a circuit diagram which would use three diodes (one for each leg of the point and one for the frog) , two momentary switches and ordinary multistrand wire which would require an outlay of about 7 euro per point wired up (each switch is about 1 euro and the diodes are 1.50 euro each (1 ero = 0.77 sterling pounds and not suraout he exchang rate foraussie dollars ). These items are available at any electronics shop (such as radionics etc).

It would mean adding LEDs to your layout near the points or on your control panel.

Richards layout and diagram is along the lines but I would use the dc from the track (about 10 mA of it) and the 16 v ac for the points.

It is the kind of thing where you need to have a little knowledge (which is not always dangerous ;-)) and just get the wiring right (use a number of colours to define each one).
It would certainly be cheaper but would take some time and effort.

As I have young kids this may take a few days (or quiet evenings)

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (Basil @ 22 Jul 2008, 19:46) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Expat,

I am in the process of drawingup a circuit diagram which would use three diodes (one for each leg of the point and one for the frog) , two momentary switches and ordinary multistrand wire which would require an outlay of about 7 euro per point wired up (each switch is about 1 euro and the diodes are 1.50 euro each (1 ero = 0.77 sterling pounds and not suraout he exchang rate foraussie dollars ). These items are available at any electronics shop (such as radionics etc).

It would mean adding LEDs to your layout near the points or on your control panel.

Richards layout and diagram is along the lines but I would use the dc from the track (about 10 mA of it) and the 16 v ac for the points.

It is the kind of thing where you need to have a little knowledge (which is not always dangerous ;-)) and just get the wiring right (use a number of colours to define each one).
It would certainly be cheaper but would take some time and effort.

As I have young kids this may take a few days (or quiet evenings)

*** Hi Basil

I am interested to see what you come up with:

Bear in mind the track power for those interested will be DCC not DC, so the normal diode based circuits that are applicable for some DC layout uses will not work unfortunately, and external power will always need to be used as diodes across track power will create problems with DCC operation.

Richard
DCCconcepts

 

[Chinahand]

QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 22 Jul 2008, 14:02) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>***I'll include a MASTERswitch in the parcel I'm about to send for you to try - No charge.

Thanks a lot Richard.

Strangely enough I was thumbing through Issue 118 of Model Rail Magazine at lunchtime today and came across the article on the MASTERswitch. I wondered at the time if it was what I needed and was going to look into it further this evening. How much are they by the way ??

Incidentally I have Seep PM1 motors, not Peco. Don't know if this makes a difference as they are both solenoid type but the PM1 also has auto frog polarity changing.

Thanks again,

Trevor.

 

[Chinahand]

QUOTE (Basil @ 22 Jul 2008, 15:46) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Expat,

I am in the process of drawingup a circuit diagram which would use three diodes (one for each leg of the point and one for the frog) , two momentary switches and ordinary multistrand wire which would require an outlay of about 7 euro per point wired up (each switch is about 1 euro and the diodes are 1.50 euro each (1 ero = 0.77 sterling pounds and not suraout he exchang rate foraussie dollars ). These items are available at any electronics shop (such as radionics etc).

It would mean adding LEDs to your layout near the points or on your control panel.

Richards layout and diagram is along the lines but I would use the dc from the track (about 10 mA of it) and the 16 v ac for the points.

It is the kind of thing where you need to have a little knowledge (which is not always dangerous ;-)) and just get the wiring right (use a number of colours to define each one).
It would certainly be cheaper but would take some time and effort.

Hi Basil,

Many thanks for the effort though my eyes glazed over after the two diodes bit - You are not dealing with a little knowledge here - you are dealing with absolutely no electrical knowledge apart from being able to fit a new plug and change a fuse.

As Richard says though, my layout is DCC whereas it seems you are working on the basis of conventional DC supply. I will have a good look at Richard's MASTER switch which seems as though it might be an answer to a maidens prayer. I suspect, however, that I am going to have to make a new front panel for my points control panel in order to get everything in.

Cheers,

Expat.

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (Expat @ 22 Jul 2008, 21:51) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thanks a lot Richard.

Strangely enough I was thumbing through Issue 118 of Model Rail Magazine at lunchtime today and came across the article on the MASTERswitch. I wondered at the time if it was what I needed and was going to look into it further this evening. How much are they by the way ??

Incidentally I have Seep PM1 motors, not Peco. Don't know if this makes a difference as they are both solenoid type but the PM1 also has auto frog polarity changing.

Thanks again,

Trevor.

Hi Trevor

I'll reply off forum re the price of MS:
They are by the way available from Bromsgrove and DCC supplies too.

Re the point motors, seep are fine - use their frog switching for frog switching and you will end up with another set of spare contacts for the LED directly off the MS. It will work OK with your idea of stud and probe....in fact it will work better as there will be no active voltage on the probe at all.....all it will do is trigger he MS. If you haven't made provision yet for the studs (its not clear from the image I saw) you can also use a standard DPDT switch as we can supply with MS - there is no need for momentary switches when MS is used.

Re your panel. Could U post a larger image of its face please so I can see more clearly

Richard

 

[Chinahand]

Hi Richard,

As I'm probably about half way between you and Bromsgrove I'll use the source I know best and can talk to. i.e. your goodself.

I actually have 2 points panels, one for the Main Line Terminus and one for the Branch Line terminus. Higher res. pictures are attached (hopefully)

The problem I foresee is the space availability at the 2 scissors where the studs are already pretty close together. One at the Station throat and one at the end of Platforms 1 & 2. I think a redesign is going to be necessary to get LEDs in.

Thanks again,

Trevor

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (Expat @ 22 Jul 2008, 23:11) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As I'm probably about half way between you and Bromsgrove I'll use the source I know best and can talk to. i.e. your goodself.
I actually have 2 points panels, one for the Main Line Terminus and one for the Branch Line terminus. Higher res. pictures are attached. The problem I foresee is the space availability at the 2 scissors where the studs are already pretty close together. One at the Station throat and one at the end of Platforms 1 & 2. I think a redesign is going to be necessary to get LEDs in.

Trevor

Its a lot of work to redo the panel - I hope U don't have to. If you want to keep as is I think LEDs will still fit.

A 3mm LED with no bezel is 3mm or with a standard plastic bezel it is 5mm diameter. the fancy ones with metal bezels are about 6mm. You COULD actually replace the existing studs with the metal bezel LED and use the metal bezel as the "stud contact" if you wanted - you would simply add a ring terminal to the wire and add that as a "washer" when you fitted the bezel into the panel.
It means you'd waste the studs but they are cheap....

I don't know how thick the panel is but a 2mm tower LED has a 2mm pin 5mm long - this would give a much smaller LED face on the panel if just pushed thru from behind and glued in - that would let U use the same panel and kep the studs too.

possible simplifications of panel design if U MUST change it.

** You could simplify by using one stud for the "cross" command where two points must change at the same time. no need for two!

** Use a DPDT switch at the point where the point numbers are now and LED where the studs are now. This would add the position of the DPDT switch to the LED to clearly indicate the direction of the point. It would also let U use the same structural panel face and only the face diagramme would need changing.

regards

Richard

 

[Basil]

QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 22 Jul 2008, 13:09) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>*** Hi Basil

I am interested to see what you come up with:

Bear in mind the track power for those interested will be DCC not DC, so the normal diode based circuits that are applicable for some DC layout uses will not work unfortunately, and external power will always need to be used as diodes across track power will create problems with DCC operation.

Richard
DCCconcepts

Richard

Yes the set up will only work on a dc layout for a couple of reasons as if I understand DCC it is a 'power to all track at all times'. As you say the diode across the track may cause problems with dcc (probably because it is a constant load to the power supply or in DCC the controller/power supply ?? or maybe some logic issue (sort of like family life sometimes)). So this will be a DC only form of showing which track is powered and which is not.

One of the aspects I expect I might have to account for with some maths (which I will have to revisit various notebooks) is that each diode will take about 10 mA to power so this could be a drain on the power available to locos if too many are used. I will do some investigating asa there are low power LEDs (We dont want much light just on/off will do)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (Basil @ 22 Jul 2008, 23:53) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Richard

Yes the set up will only work on a dc layout for a couple of reasons as if I understand DCC it is a 'power to all track at all times'. As you say the diode across the track may cause problems with dcc (probably because it is a constant load to the power supply or in DCC the controller/power supply ?? or maybe some logic issue (sort of like family life sometimes)). So this will be a DC only form of showing which track is powered and which is not.

One of the aspects I expect I might have to account for with some maths (which I will have to revisit various notebooks) is that each diode will take about 10 mA to power so this could be a drain on the power available to locos if too many are used. I will do some investigating asa there are low power LEDs (We dont want much light just on/off will do)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Hi Basil

Nothing to do with power levels or loading at all... DCC relys on delivery of a correct unmodified square wave with no filtering so diodes across the track are a no-no as are capacitors. Any diode will prevent the swing of the waveform from + to - and that will cause great hassles!

I really do think even for a DC layout there will be issues you need to overcome - eg you will need power independent of track power as on a DC layout no moving train means no voltage on the rails to power your LEDs ....

There are easy enough ways of doing it, but all need independent power sources for the LEds

Richard
DCCconcepts

 

[Basil]

Richard,

Absolutely it will need an independant power supply as the diodes will 'suck' the current out and will only be suitable for DC.

.......................And there are easier ways to do it, I'm sure, but I enjoy the tinkering.

As regards DCC, the diode will prevent the data signals as you say and DCC is not an area I know much about..

An interesting topic though.

 

[Chinahand]

QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 22 Jul 2008, 19:44) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Its a lot of work to redo the panel - I hope U don't have to.

As you say, a fair bit of work but, while building the 'Model of the Model' and after seeing the new Lyddle End models, I decided to add a siding running from the branch line to a Gas Works in the corner so I was already contemplating a 'redo' anyway. It's not actually a massive task to redo it and I do like things 'right'.

The top panel itself is 3mm acrylic sheet and I got the diagram screen printed onto clear self-adhesive plasic from a pdf file which started life as an MS Excel file. You know me and the things I do with Excel.

For the new panel I could miss out one of the studs in each direction at each of the crossings and, as you suggest, connect two points to a single stud so that they throw together. That would leave room for a 2mm LED in each direction.

Thinking even further ahead, could semaphore signals be sychronised with the points using the MASTERswitch or would I need the Pluses for that ??

Hmmmm. You've suggested a lot of options and me thinks it's time to dig out that Excel file and re-jig it. I might even go away from the stud & probe and use sub-miniature push buttons if I can make enough space. It's a good job I've still got plenty of planning time before actual layout construction starts.

I presume the MASTERswitches are installed at point locations under the layout. Space is a bit tight inside the panel and I definitely don't want to have to re-build the whole housing, though the space presently taken up by the CDU will become free if I understand the MASTERswitch concept correctly.

Incidentally, you might recall I was going to start running in my locos last weekend. Well that went seriously wrong. Booted up my brand new ECoS ESU controller for the first time and followed the instructions for running your first loco but nothing happened. Tried running the chip CV Detection but it just couldn't find a loco. After checking my wiring I ran a mini tester over the transformer output which was fine but I found that, while the controller appeared to be working OK with all menus accessible, there was actually no power getting to the track. The output connectors from the controller were completely dead so that is now winging its way back to Digitrains for examination. All a bit of a bugger really.

For the past few evenings I have had to content myself with wiring up some 25 pin D Connectors to connect the Control Panel to the layout, something I wouldn't even have contemplated trying 6 months ago, but my soldering is now up to it. I've also started assembling some N Gauge DG Couplers from brass frets. Boy are they tiny but a lot less fiddly to install than the micro trains ones.

Anyway, enough chit chat for tonight. I need my beauty sleep.

Cheers,

Trevor.

 

[zmil]

Hi All
You know me by now

If there is an expensive way to do something I will find it!
Not that I have any spare $$

I have seen in various adverts for DCC block detection units , used for triggering other operations
these have a wire from the track circuit (in the block) which is coiled through a circular ferrite? or some permanent magnet (I think)
So the DCC signal is not interfered with and there is no electrical connection between the track and the detection circuit.
this could also be used to run LED indicators on your panel , to show if the track is occupied or for signals on the layout etc
From what I understand it works by detecting current draw on the DCC block ie. a Loco or coach lighting.

There are other stationary decoders for points which will "report back" the point direction to the DCC system (for route control) but I think these systems need software and a computer hooked up to see it on a diagram

Just a thought

Regards Zmil

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (zmil @ 23 Jul 2008, 10:59) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi All
You know me by now

If there is an expensive way to do something I will find it!
Not that I have any spare $$

I have seen in various adverts for DCC block detection units , used for triggering other operations
these have a wire from the track circuit (in the block) which is coiled through a circular ferrite? or some permanent magnet (I think)
So the DCC signal is not interfered with and there is no electrical connection between the track and the detection circuit.
this could also be used to run LED indicators on your panel , to show if the track is occupied or for signals on the layout etc
From what I understand it works by detecting current draw on the DCC block ie. a Loco or coach lighting.

There are other stationary decoders for points which will "report back" the point direction to the DCC system (for route control) but I think these systems need software and a computer hooked up to see it on a diagram

Just a thought

Regards Zmil

***These only work while a loco or similar active device is in the "block"... they do not detect resistively so a motor is needed.

They are useful for their design purpose but not for the purposes of this thread. Optical devices will do the same thing with no need for blocks to be cut. I do an 8 detector circuit that is less than half the cost per sensor of the inductive detectors.

Point decoders (some, not all) can certainly report back either by LED indication or software info.

Richard
DCCconcepts.

 

[Richard Johnson]

*** Well thats a first - I've not seen a dead ECOS out of the box yet! Bad luck indeed!

You said: For the new panel I could miss out one of the studs in each direction at each of the crossings and, as you suggest, connect two points to a single stud so that they throw together. That would leave room for a 2mm LED in each direction.

***OK that'd do it no problem. If you go MS though you will be supplied with DPDT switches with each MS so you could also possibly use these - actually as easy to wire as the studs and far neater in use/visually too....

You asked: Thinking even further ahead, could semaphore signals be sychronised with the points using the MASTERswitch or would I need the Pluses for that ??

***yes If you use the LED outputs of the MS they can also drive a signal - as could the spare contacts you'd have on the DPDT switches if you use them. If you wanted to use the LED outputs for signals I'd probably hook them to a small relay as they are current limited and will drive a low current coil or an LED / couple of LEDs only.

MS PLUS has huge witching flexibility and will do almost anything from auto reversing to signal interlocking etc etc... 2x the price of a standard MS V2 though....

You asked: I presume the MASTERswitches are installed at point locations under the layout. Space is a bit tight inside the panel and I definitely don't want to have to re-build the whole housing, though the space presently taken up by the CDU will become free if I understand the MASTERswitch concept correctly.

***Yes, MS is best mounted by the points. Wire between MS and panel can be as thin as you want - the LEDs and the switching are super low current and aren't affected by wire size at all which is good for your panel wiring! The CDU will not be needed.

Fingers crossed your ECOS returns safe and well very soon!

Richard
DCCconcepts

 

[Sol]

For operation of solenoid motors like Peco & Seep, I am very happy with Masterswitch - I have been using them now for about 3-4 years as they can be operated via stud & wire; push buttons; momentary action toggles or fixed direction toggles like DPDT. The later versions may even allow a computer to talk to them.
Mine are mounted near the motors scattered around under the baseboard.