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Interested in the continental Express DB passenger trains pre 39, however my knowledge of their train layout is limited. For instance after the express locomotive would one have a luggage car and so on?. What would be the protipical length of the trains etc.
 

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QUOTE (Kauri @ 8 Jul 2008, 12:53) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Interested in the continental Express DB passenger trains pre 39, however my knowledge of their train layout is limited. For instance after the express locomotive would one have a luggage car and so on?. What would be the protipical length of the trains etc.
Pre 1939 would all be DR.

AFAIK there would always be a luggage van/car of some sort between the locomotive & train. Some fast trains had only a few coaches for part of the journey. Diffecult to answer quickly as the subject can get quite complex.
 

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Just an Added bit
Deutsche Reichsbahn EPII All goods vans are lettered with "Deutsche Reichsbahn" and class.
DR Became East Germany Epoch III/IV after WWII till Amalgamation with Deutsche Bundesbahn and Deutsche Reichsbahn (former DDR) being merged into the Deutsche Bahn AG. DB AG( Epoch 5)

Regards Zmil
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
QUOTE (poliss @ 8 Jul 2008, 13:46) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>These two websites may be of some help. Chris Manvell's shows some sets. http://trains.manvell.org.uk/sets.htm and WorldRailfans shows what locomotives are appropriate for what rolling-stock. http://www.worldrailfans.org/Articles/Euro...ableStock.shtml

Thanks for the info gents.
For instance the English railway had break car in a train, 1st or 2nd break, I do not see this on the continental trains, or did they have a different breaking system?
 

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My German isn't very good, but I think the equivalent term in German for brake van for goods and passenger trains is packwagen. I could be wrong. :)
 

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Well, this is a topic close to my heart, although my specific interest is Württemberg between 1928-1932!

There really is no such think as a typical german passenger train in the 1930's. A really useful book to get hold of is Miba Report Zugbildung (3). Lots of pictures of real trains which shows some interesting results. I was once told that you would never have seen a train made up only of the Prussian outline coach's that Brawa make. Sure enough there is a picture of such a train, but do not lose sight of the fact that this was probably an exception rather than a rule. The old adage never say never is very true.

Yes there was a railway regulation that there had to be a non revenue wagon between the locomotive and the first passenger car. This could be a baggage car, a mail car, a combination baggage/mail car or a box car, note that there was a specific box car for this (3 axel type Stettin)

To understand train composition it is necessary to understand where trains came and went from. The train from Berlin to Vienna would have looked very different in Vienna from when it left Berlin. Coaches would have been added and subtracted along the way. An example would have been some coach's going from Berlin to Stuttgart, which would have left the train in Munich.

Train length varied but as a general rule the majority of coach's would be 3rd class. Unless it was a L Zug (luxury train) it is doubtful if there would have been any first class coach's in it. It is more like that a 1st\2nd\3rd (ABC 4u) type or a 2nd\3rd (BC 4u) would be in there.

I could probably bore everyone here by writing more but if you want to know more let me know. I have a PPT presentation that I did for my local train club on the subject, so if you would like to see that send me PM.

In terms of what I am doing my express passenger coach fleet is made up of coach's from Wurttemberg, Bavaria, Prussia and some standard build examples. In my view the "trick" is to use coach's from all manufacturers, mine are made by Brawa, Marklin, Roco Fleischmann.

In terms of understanding just how much stock was about the following web site has a huge amount of data but in German http://www.hs-merseburg.de/~nosske/EpocheII/e2xd.html

Another good forum where there is a fair amount of data on Epoch II for the German modeller is http://germanrail.8.forumer.com/index.php

Cheers

John
 

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QUOTE (john woodall @ 9 Jul 2008, 06:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Well, this is a topic close to my heart, although my specific interest is Württemberg between 1928-1932!

I could probably bore everyone here by writing more but if you want to know more let me know. I have a PPT presentation that I did for my local train club on the subject, so if you would like to see that send me PM.

Cheers

John
Same here John. I wouldn't mind seeing the PPt presentation either. Sounds good.

Another sight to look at is this one. DB Trains epochII
 

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Hi Guys,

Just to let you know, the file is 17 megs so you need a bit of space in your mail box for it. Hotmail says its to big to accet.

Cheers

John
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
QUOTE (john woodall @ 8 Jul 2008, 21:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Well, this is a topic close to my heart, although my specific interest is Württemberg between 1928-1932!

There really is no such think as a typical german passenger train in the 1930's. A really useful book to get hold of is Miba Report Zugbildung (3). Lots of pictures of real trains which shows some interesting results. I was once told that you would never have seen a train made up only of the Prussian outline coach's that Brawa make. Sure enough there is a picture of such a train, but do not lose sight of the fact that this was probably an exception rather than a rule. The old adage never say never is very true.

Yes there was a railway regulation that there had to be a non revenue wagon between the locomotive and the first passenger car. This could be a baggage car, a mail car, a combination baggage/mail car or a box car, note that there was a specific box car for this (3 axel type Stettin)

To understand train composition it is necessary to understand where trains came and went from. The train from Berlin to Vienna would have looked very different in Vienna from when it left Berlin. Coaches would have been added and subtracted along the way. An example would have been some coach's going from Berlin to Stuttgart, which would have left the train in Munich.

Train length varied but as a general rule the majority of coach's would be 3rd class. Unless it was a L Zug (luxury train) it is doubtful if there would have been any first class coach's in it. It is more like that a 1st\2nd\3rd (ABC 4u) type or a 2nd\3rd (BC 4u) would be in there.

I could probably bore everyone here by writing more but if you want to know more let me know. I have a PPT presentation that I did for my local train club on the subject, so if you would like to see that send me PM.

In terms of what I am doing my express passenger coach fleet is made up of coach's from Wurttemberg, Bavaria, Prussia and some standard build examples. In my view the "trick" is to use coach's from all manufacturers, mine are made by Brawa, Marklin, Roco Fleischmann.

In terms of understanding just how much stock was about the following web site has a huge amount of data but in German http://www.hs-merseburg.de/~nosske/EpocheII/e2xd.html

Another good forum where there is a fair amount of data on Epoch II for the German modeller is http://germanrail.8.forumer.com/index.php

Cheers

JohnWow John I am impressed
 

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QUOTE (john woodall @ 8 Jul 2008, 21:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yes there was a railway regulation that there had to be a non revenue wagon between the locomotive and the first passenger car. This could be a baggage car, a mail car, a combination baggage/mail car or a box car, note that there was a specific box car for this (3 axel type Stettin)

Sometimes also an elderly empty coach with doors closed.

QUOTE (john woodall @ 8 Jul 2008, 21:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>To understand train composition it is necessary to understand where trains came and went from. The train from Berlin to Vienna would have looked very different in Vienna from when it left Berlin. Coaches would have been added and subtracted along the way. An example would have been some coach's going from Berlin to Stuttgart, which would have left the train in Munich.

In addition to John: All trains had a core stock which has not been altered except at the end of the line. A few long distance expresses were composed of e.g. two smaller core trains having started from different stations, being merged at a station, and continue as one train (so called "Flügelzüge"). In addition to the core train, through coaches were added and separated at nearly every larger station.

QUOTE (john woodall @ 8 Jul 2008, 21:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Train length varied but as a general rule the majority of coach's would be 3rd class. Unless it was a L Zug (luxury train) it is doubtful if there would have been any first class coach's in it. It is more like that a 1st\2nd\3rd (ABC 4u) type or a 2nd\3rd (BC 4u) would be in there.

The 1st classe coaches were not only used in luxury trains (such as the "Orient Express" and other CIWL and MITROPA expresses). These luxury trains consisted of first class coaches only. FD trains (FD-Zug, long distance express, often with link abroad) like the "Rheingold" consisted of 1st and 2nd class coaches, normal inland expresses (D-Zug)consisted of 1st, 2nd and 3rd class coaches. Apart from the three express train classes (luxury, FD and D), first class coaches were not in usage.

A typical D-Zug (express train) would have consisted of

1 brake (Packwagen)
1 1st/2nd class composite
2-3 third class coaches
1 restaurant (run by MITROPA).

These core coaches all consisted of the same type of coaches. Through coaches of any other type

A typical Personenzug (local train) would have consisted of

1 brake/3rd composite or mail/brake composite or just a brake
1 2nd/3rd composite
3 third class coaches

on local passenger trains, all material available was used in a potpourri ... with regional spice (e.g. in Bavaria former bavarian stock of different types mixed with standard and prussian stock)
 

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Just some terminology differences. What the British call a Brake van is not the same as a German Baggage Car (Pw). German express passenger trains in the 1930's were air braked. There was no need for brake vans.

The top express trains (excluding the luxury trains) were the FD (Fernschnellzugen) and these were made up almost exclusively of 1st and 1st/2nd coaches. The stock used was the latest, remembering that the Germans undertook a huge coach building process in the 1930's. As an aside in 1930 there were only 193 1st class coaches for use on these trains. The Rheingold and the SVT 137's (Flying Hamburger) were FD trains and not Luxury Trains.

FD 79 ran from Berlin to Munich. Logic says it was likely pulled by a class 01, but the class 03 and class 18's also pulled them.

Pw4u
AB4u
Wr
AB4u
AB4u

The D Zuge were more numerous and stopped at more stations. They would have also had more of the different Landerbahn stock in them. The class 03 were built for these trains but the class 18 would have pulled them as well. Remember that not all class 18 are the same. If you model Württemberg then the 18.1 was the locomotive, in Baden it was the 18.3, in Bavaria the 18.4-5.

D24 also ran from Berlin to Munich

Post Berlin - Leipzig
BC4u Berlin - Leipzig
C4u Berlin - Hof
ABC4u Berlin - Nurenburg
AB4u Berlin - Munich
BC4u Berlin - Munich
Wr Berlin - Munich
C4u Berlin - Munich
C4u Berlin - Munich
Pw4u Berlin - Munich

Once you get down to the Eilzuge then the coaching stock would have been very regionalised, ie landerbahn stock from the Bavarian state railway would not have been seen outside of Bavaria (yes it would have floated around the border regions but would not have unlikely to have been seen in Stuttgart etc).

These trains would have generally been the 2 and 3 axel stock and the 4 axel stock with out corridor connection, ie open platforms.

Gotta love this sort of stuff.

John
 

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You'll also find that many of the Rhine Valley expresses from 1928 also often had the 18.4 and 18.5 locos (ostensibly as John said, a Bavarian type), and other parts of Germany too, I guess they were deemed successful, and trials were still continuing on the newer types. In fact, of the last series of 18 locos of the class S3/6 delivered in 1930 (sometimes called series 'o'), only 2 went to a Bavarian shed, the rest went to Darmstadt, Osnabruck and Halle (Saale).

Key thing is, do a bit of research if your layout has a prototype and stock it according. Guys like me and John W and sites like this can provide you with a lot of information. So I have the best of many worlds, I like Epoche III, both 'a' and 'b' and at the location of my prototype layout (not built yet, but well stocked!) I can run some Baden types, some Wurttemburg types, some Bavarian types and Einheits types.

6991 (with wide smile)
 

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QUOTE (6991 @ 20 Jul 2008, 11:41) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>at the location of my prototype layout (not built yet, but well stocked!) I can run some Baden types, some Wurttemburg types, some Bavarian types and Einheits types.

At the Bodensee, all of them can be found - and Swiss ones. But presumably, not at the same station.
 

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Ahhhhhhhh the Bodensee, another area of great interest and research for me. If I had the time, space and money, it would be the station that I would model. I have spent a few days there and it is a great place. The main station on the Isle of Lindau is quite big, and the station on the "mainland" is also a reasonable size. The entrance to the isle is via a tri-angle onto a bridge and into the station area. Truly an inspired prototype!

The two main railway stations on the Bodensee are Freidrichshafen and Lindau.

Lindau, which is in Bavaria is very close to the Swiss/Austrian border. It has lines going to Frreidrichshafen to the west, which is home to the Zepplin museum (which is well worth a visit) in Württemberg, Berganz to the east in Austria and Kempton to the north in Bavaria.

I doubt that many if any Baden locomotives would have been seen around there on a regular basis. The 18.3 was more a locomotive for flat terrain, where as the 18.1 and the 18.4-5 were based there at various times.

Cheers

John
 

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QUOTE (john woodall @ 23 Jul 2008, 09:07) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I doubt that many if any Baden locomotives would have been seen around there on a regular basis. The 18.3 was more a locomotive for flat terrain, where as the 18.1 and the 18.4-5 were based there at various times.

Well, the western banks of the Bodensee are badonian territory (today Wurttemberg and Badonia are merged into the federal state of Baden-Württemberg), and the Badonian Main line from (Frankfurt/Main) - Mannheim - Freiburg - Basel (bad.) - Singen (Hohentwiel) - Konstanz ends in Konstanz which is at the Bodensee. Therefore, badonian locos and stock operated there as well. Indeed, the later Reichsbahn class 18.3 never saw service from Basel to Bodensee. The comparatively fast express engines were used on the Rhine valley part between Frankfurt/Main and Basel. In the mid-1930s, they were relocated to Bremen. In Badionian State Railways time, the line between Basel and Konstanz (Hochrheinstrecke/High Rhine line) was dominated by badonian class IVe (Reichsbahn class 38.70), a four cylinder compound 4-6-0 built by Graffenstaden/Strasbourg in 1894. After their withdrawal about 1930, Reichsbahn class 38.10 (prussian/badonian class P 8) were used. Also to be seen classes 75.10 and 85 (2-10-2) tank locos. Shunting was provided by class 92.3 0-8-0 tank locos. Except the old class IVe, each of these classes are available RTR.
 

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Hi John.

QUOTE (john woodall @ 8 Jul 2008, 20:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I could probably bore everyone here by writing more but if you want to know more let me know. I have a PPT presentation that I did for my local train club on the subject, so if you would like to see that send me PM.

In terms of what I am doing my express passenger coach fleet is made up of coach's from Wurttemberg, Bavaria, Prussia and some standard build examples. In my view the "trick" is to use coach's from all manufacturers, mine are made by Brawa, Marklin, Roco Fleischmann.

In terms of understanding just how much stock was about the following web site has a huge amount of data but in German http://www.hs-merseburg.de/~nosske/EpocheII/e2xd.html

Another good forum where there is a fair amount of data on Epoch II for the German modeller is http://germanrail.8.forumer.com/index.php
Do you still have that PPT presentation. If so, I would love a copy as this subject interests me as I like to have my trains as authentic as I can within my limited experience. I am modelling Epochs 1 and 2 with lots of anachronisms (at the moment). If you are still able to send the ppt, let me know and I will PM you with my email address. Alternatively, you can go to my website and click on "Contact Webmaster" on most pages. You will see my email address on the page that opens.

With best wishes,
Chris.
 

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QUOTE (john woodall @ 23 Jul 2008, 09:07) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>...The 18.3 was more a locomotive for flat terrain, where as the 18.1 and the 18.4-5 were based there at various times.

Cheers

John

Absolutely, John. The Bad. IVh, which became the class 18.3 later on, was mainly used on the line between Frankfurt/Heidelberg and Basle (Bad). Being a dedicated express engine, its large main drivers would have made even light mountains very unfeasible. On a side note, the 18.3 was considered to be a very complicated engine to service, and in addition, it had a very high consumption in terms of coal*, so "wasting" the benefits of that engine - high speed, high accelleration figures - outside of flat terrain would have been a waste of resources.

However, in not-so-flat southern terrain, tender engines such as the T5 were regularly found on the point of express trains. Trivia: the term "D-Zug", or "Durchgangszug" refers to the fact that you could walk through the entire train while it was running, The coaches were connected, meaning it became comfortable to include, like, a dining car into the consist. Women no longer needed to negotiate windy platforms while the train was running.

*not as high as the 18.0 though
 
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