DCC or control panel, which is best?

QUOTE (Ian @ 17 Oct 2007, 12:42) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Nov06 I replaced the laptop with an Ecos which allows point control,route setting and a lot more.
I still use my Lenz system connected to sniffer port of Ecos which gives me full walk around etc .
How do I identify each point? Most point motors(Peco) are surface mounted. Getting to old to be crawling around under layouts trying to fit point motors.
Over each p/motor is a small scratch built hut. Each hut is numbered corresponding to DCC accessory number. Those very few p/motors that are attached under layout has post with number on a disc attached adjacent to point. Which means that all points are easy to identify.
The rule on my layout is such that all points must be set before starting train. I have seen many disastrous mishaps occur on DC analogue layouts(control panels) because points were not changed quick enough in front of a moving train.
My main lines are blocked with thru the rails block detection which operate signals which must be obeyed by operaters at all times. My points are slowly being fitted with ground signals to show which line is set.
I use Lenz LS150 accessory decoders which allows op of six(6) points per unit. I have found that operating two points(cross over) wth LS150 is not a problem.
So for me, the more I can operate with DCC the happier I am.
Happy DCCing
Iansa
Hi Ian,

I am using an ECoS too and have also tried using Peco point motors through an LS150. I got pretty poor results so I tried them through an LDT s-dec-dc which is about 50/50. So I am now switching to Tortoise as I get 100% success. Are you using Masterswitch or anything to supplement the LS150 and peco points?

Oh I noticed that the lift bridge thing was very popular in Adelaide. They were very well done.

cheers Neil

QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 17 Oct 2007, 13:56) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Ian,

I am using an ECoS too and have also tried using Peco point motors through an LS150. I got pretty poor results so I tried them through an LDT s-dec-dc which is about 50/50. So I am now switching to Tortoise as I get 100% success. Are you using Masterswitch or anything to supplement the LS150 and peco points?

Oh I noticed that the lift bridge thing was very popular in Adelaide. They were very well done.

cheers Neil

Hi Neil, as stated in last post I have no trouble operating Peco points with LS150. Two points in tandem(cross over), no problems.
Lenz suggest max 16v ac to power points. I bit the bullet and tried 18v ac. That was 4yrs ago. Have not destroyed any LS150's yet.
No, I am not using any Masterswitch's or anything to supplement LS150 and Peco points. As they say," it works for me".
The lift bridge on my friends garden tram layout is aprox 4ft long and goes up/down in total horizontal position. It is raised by a 240v motor which drives a chain mechanism each end.
The whole thing is activated by a TCS function only decoder which in turn fires a series of relays which then turns the motors on/off.
Re Ecos, I have not tried shuttle mode yet. Which is the best detector for this?
I am leaning towards the Litfinski.
Happy DCCing
Iansa

QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 17 Oct 2007, 13:56) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Ian,

I am using an ECoS too and have also tried using Peco point motors through an LS150. I got pretty poor results so I tried them through an LDT s-dec-dc which is about 50/50. So I am now switching to Tortoise as I get 100% success. Are you using Masterswitch or anything to supplement the LS150 and peco points?

Oh I noticed that the lift bridge thing was very popular in Adelaide. They were very well done.

cheers Neil

Hi Neil, as stated in last post I have no trouble operating Peco points with LS150. Two points in tandem(cross over), no problems.
Lenz suggest max 16v ac to power points. I bit the bullet and tried 18v ac. That was 4yrs ago. Have not destroyed any LS150's yet.
No, I am not using any Masterswitch's or anything to supplement LS150 and Peco points. As they say," it works for me".
The lift bridge on my friends garden tram layout is aprox 4ft long and goes up/down in total horizontal position. It is raised by a 240v motor which drives a chain mechanism each end.
The whole thing is activated by a TCS function only decoder which in turn fires a series of relays which then turns the motors on/off.
Re Ecos, I have not tried shuttle mode yet. Which is the best detector for this?
I am leaning towards the Litfinski.
Happy DCCing
Iansa

QUOTE (Ian @ 17 Oct 2007, 18:32) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Neil, as stated in last post I have no trouble operating Peco points with LS150. Two points in tandem(cross over), no problems.
Lenz suggest max 16v ac to power points. I bit the bullet and tried 18v ac. That was 4yrs ago. Have not destroyed any LS150's yet.
No, I am not using any Masterswitch's or anything to supplement LS150 and Peco points. As they say," it works for me".
The lift bridge on my friends garden tram layout is aprox 4ft long and goes up/down in total horizontal position. It is raised by a 240v motor which drives a chain mechanism each end.
The whole thing is activated by a TCS function only decoder which in turn fires a series of relays which then turns the motors on/off.
Re Ecos, I have not tried shuttle mode yet. Which is the best detector for this?
I am leaning towards the Litfinski.
Happy DCCing
Iansa
Hi Ian,
as it stands at the moment the LDT is your only option. There are problems with the Veissmann 5233 as it cannot be the last or only one in the chain and the other options are for motorola. The LDT RM-GB-8 is the go, the other LDT one requires reeds. If your interested I put some info on this subject in my blog.

cheers

Neil

Coming back to the control panel thing, I wonder whether having remote point control panels is the go for DCC as it seems that the control panels are an area that is currently missing?

QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 18 Oct 2007, 08:13) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Ian,
as it stands at the moment the LDT is your only option. There are problems with the Veissmann 5233 as it cannot be the last or only one in the chain and the other options are for motorola. The LDT RM-GB-8 is the go, the other LDT one requires reeds. If your interested I put some info on this subject in my blog.

cheers

Neil

Coming back to the control panel thing, I wonder whether having remote point control panels is the go for DCC as it seems that the control panels are an area that is currently missing?

Thanks Neil, the LTD RM-GB-8 is what I was thinking of.
The control panel thing is an interesting subject. Controlling points etc with DCC is something the jury will be out on for some. Others won't have a bar of it and people like me will embrace it and enjoy operating layouts with it.
Re control panel for DCC operated points. The Ecos has already got one. The only thing missing is a track schematic.
I think most programs, RR&CO, Kam Industries have schematics. Even the cheaper Zug DCC program has track schematics that allows operation of points.
Happy DCCing
Iansa

QUOTE (Ian @ 18 Oct 2007, 16:09) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thanks Neil, the LTD RM-GB-8 is what I was thinking of.
The control panel thing is an interesting subject. Controlling points etc with DCC is something the jury will be out on for some. Others won't have a bar of it and people like me will embrace it and enjoy operating layouts with it.
Re control panel for DCC operated points. The Ecos has already got one. The only thing missing is a track schematic.
I think most programs, RR&CO, Kam Industries have schematics. Even the cheaper Zug DCC program has track schematics that allows operation of points.
Happy DCCing
Iansa
No worries Ian,

In regard to the ECoS control panel; what I was thinking was that you could have slave units which had the point control screens which could be connected to the ECoS as remote point operation units as a DCC alternative to the control panel. These could be lower cost as they would not require all the software of the central ECoS unit. Just an idea so that a layout can be operated with many people rather than just one..

QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 15 Oct 2007, 14:04) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Do the forum members think that using DCC for points and accessories is a non-starter? Or are there others out there who think that it is the way to go?

I have been slowly building my first DCC layout and can afford to experiment so I have decided to incorporate a mix of computer control and panel control. Why?

I find DCC far more addictive than DC ( especially when controlling a sound chipped loco) so I want to be able to "play" more often. So for times when friends are busy I program the computer to run trains and I use the mouse to change points and to check that routes are set correctly.

Dave
(hooked on DCC)

Both of our - exhibtion - layouts are controlled by RR&Co software, working over multiple panels with full route setting and interlocking between the panels, we often operate with up to 8 people so computer route setting does not mean you can't have friends around

I have done a simple introduction to RR (for route/signal setting) on the WFRM website and this includes using it to control semaphores.

We wouldn't go back to "hard" panels.

QUOTE (72C @ 22 Oct 2007, 17:36) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Limited sucess? If you add Peco's microswitch, they are almost fool proof. The latest copy of RM provided some handy hints and tips on installation but it really is down to the ability of the person installing the motors (which applies to all motors)

To a very limited degree that is true but only in the sense that a beginner may not instal them correctly.

I have found that even Peco point motors controlled by DCC which once worked well will suddenly not work well five minutes later for no apparent reason. They are very tempramental and unreliable with DCC without a supplementary device. A lot of the time they twitch rather than switch.

If it is "really down to the ability of the person installing the point motors", as you allege, then please explain the existence of Master switch, CDU's and Peco's Microswitch to supplement the peco point motor? Why would they be neccessary then if it was purely down to the ability of the installer? If this was true there would be no market for rectification products. As Brian says once you have reached the cost of adding masterswitch or microswitch then you would be as well getting a Tortoise or Tillig motor which are 100% reliable (well they are for me).

QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 23 Oct 2007, 08:11) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>To a very limited degree that is true but only in the sense that a beginner may not instal them correctly.

I have found that even Peco point motors controlled by DCC which once worked well will suddenly not work well five minutes later for no apparent reason. They are very tempramental and unreliable with DCC without a supplementary device. A lot of the time they twitch rather than switch.

If it is "really down to the ability of the person installing the point motors", as you allege, then please explain the existence of Master switch, CDU's and Peco's Microswitch to supplement the peco point motor? Why would they be neccessary then if it was purely down to the ability of the installer? If this was true there would be no market for rectification products. As Brian says once you have reached the cost of adding masterswitch or microswitch then you would be as well getting a Tortoise or Tillig motor which are 100% reliable (well they are for me).

30 yrs in model railroading and I have only used standard Peco points and point motors.
I have not used CDU's even when I was DC Analogue. (13yrs ago).
Things I learnt early days with Peco point motors; Do not use DC voltage, use minimum 16v if not using DCC , a small drop of Wahl (hair clipper) oil or similar every 6 mnths or so on point cross bar and point motor helps.
As stated in earlier posts I now op all points thru DCC with Lenz LS150 accessory decoders.
Although Lenz say max 16v ac I put 18/19v ac 5amp into my LS150's. Have been doing this over 4yrs without any detrimental effect on any LS 150's. Have not cooked one yet.
I have no trouble firing two point motors in tandem such as cross overs. Some point motors have micro switches, some have cheap Peco two way switches, all fire 99%.
I do not believe that anything works 100% all of the time. I am a member of a DCC model Rail way club and the club layout has a number of Tortois motors fitted and the odd one jams occasionally, not very often, but it does happen .
Re CDU's, Masterswitch's and the like. Very good products, specially the Masterswitch. I believe the producers saw an opening in the market for such products and, yes there is but IMHO not absolutely necessary. I have seen CDU's/Masterswitches fail too.
IMO, peco points do have to be installed properly. In My case more so because most of my point motors are surface mounted with rods and mechanisms etc. Reasonable gauge wire is a must so there is no voltage drop.
Also, Peco p/motors should have between 4-5 ohm resistance on each coil. Under 4 ohm is risky, 3 ohms is near a dead short which,as we know, is big trouble. I have known the odd new Peco p/motror to be under 4 0hms. Not often but has been known. We all know the odd failure happens in any product that is mass produced.
Re the cost of Peco point motor plus micro switches etc., being the same or close to slow motion motors with everything included. True, but, I don't require switches on all my point
motors therefore, I would be paying for something I don't want in many cases.
As I use all insulfrog points I do not require power routed frogs.No, I do not have stalling problems at the frogs either but that is another subject.
As they say,it works for me and after all, is that not what this wonderful hobby is all about. There is often no correct way just the way that works best for you.
Happy DCCing
Iansa