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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello folks,

I have a problem with my Fleischmann BR 218 #6 4236 HO locomotive with decoder which I bought from ebay recently. The decoder is 6-pole which unlike the one I have on the Horby Class 50, it's a 8-pole. The light on the Fleischmann never work and the running noise is quite noticeable....actually it's like a windup toy! It's normal? And how to make the light work? I've tested the bulb with a 9v transformer and it light without any problem






Thanks,
Dennis
 

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Hi Dennis,

Your 218 (which,if it came unboxed is probably out of a start set) has the Fleischmann Twin-Decoder fitted - this decoder works with standard DCC & also with the Fleischmann FMZ system.

T o quite honest you will probably be better off changing the decoder. The factory default settings of the decoder is 27 speed steps, not 28 or 128 as most other DCC works with (I'm sure the Select is 28/128 speed steps). This is almost certainly why the lights on the 218 don't operate.

I don't think that the Select can change the speed settings, but I may be wrong here.

If you are anywhere near Margate we could change the settings for you, so that you can use it with your Select. The noise is probably being made because of the incorrect settings - these loco's are normally very quiet when lightly lubed in the right places.

Hope this helps - please come back to us if you need further help.

BTW - welcome to the forum.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for your advice, the Hornby Select unit has the speed step change function (14/28/128). I changed the loco to 28 and the lights finally switched on but it was blinking and cannot switch it off, then I programmed it to 14 and I can switch on and off the lights by the function key but sometimes the loco cannot resume running after I stopped it but few minutes later it ran again
 

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QUOTE (ms06s_char @ 11 Mar 2007, 05:14) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thanks for your advice, the Hornby Select unit has the speed step change function (14/28/128). I changed the loco to 28 and the lights finally switched on but it was blinking and cannot switch it off, then I programmed it to 14 and I can switch on and off the lights by the function key but sometimes the loco cannot resume running after I stopped it but few minutes later it ran again


Ah, we are getting somewhere - the blinking lights on the FLN Twin-Decoder are an indication of motor short/overload (similar to the same feature in the Lenz Silver/Gold). The fact that the loco starts again after being powered down seems to confirm this.

Double check that the motor is OK & that there are no capacitors wiring across the motor backplate. The 3-pole FLM motor suffers from dry bearings, especially if not used for a while & sometimes runs hot. If you dismantle the motor to check make sure that the mark the exact position of the magnet before dismantleing. Once sorted this loco will run very well.

Try this & let us know how you get on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hi Brian,

There are only 2 green wires from the capacitor to the decoder and another capacitor near the motor, the wires don't touch the motor backplate.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o12/ms0...in/IMG_4778.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o12/ms0...in/IMG_4781.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o12/ms0...in/IMG_4782.jpg

windup noise:

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o12/ms0...in/IMG_4793.jpg
Now I can confirm the noise is from the 2 spring like things ripping against the copper ring, without the 2 springs I move the gear it didn't make any noise. There are dirt on the copper ring too, should I clean them and put lubricant? I only have WD-40, is it ok?

Thanks,
Dennis
 

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The two green wires from the decoder to the capacitor (that sits in the chassis recess) should be left in place -it's only the FLM decoders that seem to have these. I can't see any small capacitors on the motor backplate ( these ones are smaller than a matchead & square.

The noise on the video is coming from the motor pinion (gear) & the first nylon gear - this should diminish with running in - you could try a tiny amount of silicone grease or Roco or Trix gear grease to help them bed in.

It may be an idea to give the commutator a good clean, also clean off any dust from the inside of the motor backplate (the bit the brushes fit into). Don't be tempted to use any WD40, Electrolube or anything similar.

Try this & come back to us.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
no WD40? oh no, I tried last night, after few drops of WD40 the noise reduced a bit....I figured out that the thing on the end of the spring is a graphite, which is something like a resistor and I put some WD40 on it.
Is most of the FLN motor like the one on my BR218? If so, are they run quite loud, too?

 

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The big capacitor is really big - perhaps it serves another function other than suppression. Is it perhaps a sort of UPS?

The other little one can go. the thing with the coil spring and graphite rod is a choke. It can stay. If you remove it, you will have to add a jumper.

The noise is not that bad. I have nosier locos. Sounds more like gears than the motor.
 

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It's hard to draw firm conclusions from the video, but well done for posting it!

Compared with my own Fleischmann HO locos, it does seem perhaps a little more penetrating in tone. Mine are not digital - I'm not sure how significant that might be, but there are plenty of people here who WILL know.

To help with noise identification, a useful strategy is to take out the motor or remove all or part of the transmission, whichever is easiest. Then power the motor without anything else to confuse with various noise sources. I'm not sure how practical that would be with this particular loco though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
the noise is from the friction between the graphite and the copper contact on the core, when I remove the graphites, no noise at all and of course it won't move, so I turned the gears by my finger.
Add jumpers? What is it? I don't how to do it and I don't think I have that skill too.....
 

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QUOTE (Doug @ 12 Mar 2007, 10:24) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The big capacitor is really big - perhaps it serves another function other than suppression. Is it perhaps a sort of UPS?

The other little one can go. the thing with the coil spring and graphite rod is a choke. It can stay. If you remove it, you will have to add a jumper.

The noise is not that bad. I have nosier locos. Sounds more like gears than the motor.

The big capacitor (the one with the green wires) has to stay or the decoder won't work (don't know why but there it is).

Get rid of the little one (the yellowy one) & the two just visible square ones in the 1 & 2 o'clok positions on the motor backplate. Leave the "thing with the coil spring & graphite rod".

I suspect that the loco will get much quieter with some use - the noise may just be coming from the brushes/commutator & will get less with use.

All of the newer FLM motors are different to this one - although an old design they still run well, usually very quiet.

BTW - nice clear pics & grahics.
 

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QUOTE (dbclass50 @ 13 Mar 2007, 02:10) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The big capacitor (the one with the green wires) has to stay or the decoder won't work (don't know why but there it is).

Get rid of the little one (the yellowy one) & the two just visible square ones in the 1 & 2 o'clok positions on the motor backplate. Leave the "thing with the coil spring & graphite rod".

I suspect that the loco will get much quieter with some use - the noise may just be coming from the brushes/commutator & will get less with use.

All of the newer FLM motors are different to this one - although an old design they still run well, usually very quiet.

BTW - nice clear pics & grahics.

What will I expect if I remove those components?


Also, I have a reply from Fleischmann:
QUOTE Nürnberg den 12. März 2007

Dear Sir Dennis,
the decoder of your locomotive is TWIN-Decoder.
These have the quality that the light only shines from Fahrstufe 1.
If stands the loco then remains, the light becomes darker.
It becomes light only when the renewed approaching. That is only with our TWIN-Decodern so, not with the DCC-Decodern.

Info zu Fleischmann Decodern:
Eigenschaften unserer TWIN/DCC-Decoder:

TWIN-DECODER
* Zweisprachigkeit:
DCC nach NMRA-Norm und Fleischmann-FMZ
kein Analogbetrieb !
* Lastgeregelt:
Ob bergauf oder bergab, die Lok fährt immer mit der gleichen Geschwindigkeit.
* Schutz gegen Kurschluss und Überlast:
Die Wirksamkeit des Schutzes wird durch Blinken der Lokbeleuchtung angezeigt.
* bis zu 128 Fahrstufen:
im FMZ-Betrieb 15 Fahrstufen, im DCC-Betrieb bis 128 Fahrstufen (CV 29 Bit 1= 0|1)
* Lokadressen bis 9999
bis 119 bei FMZ, bis 9999 bei DCC Betrieb
* Einstellbare Anfahr- und Bremsverzögerung:
Anfahrverzögerung CV 3, Bremsverzögerung CV 4
* Sonderfunktionen
Fahrtrichtungsabhängiges Licht kann ein/aus geschaltet werden
* Mindest- und Höchstgeschwindigkeit
Einstellbare Lokindividuelle Mindest- und Höchstgeschwindigkeit (CV 67, CV 94)
* Motorsteuerkennlinie
Einstellbare Lokindividuelle Motorsteuerkennlinie ( CV 68-93)

Beachten Sie, daß durch die Möglichkeit des Analogbetriebs bei TWIN-Decodern, das Licht folgende Effekte hat.
1. Wenn das Licht eingeschaltet wird, leuchtet es erst wenn die Lok losfährt.
2. Wenn die Lok wieder angehalten wird, wird das Licht dunkler. Erst bein weiterfahren wird das Licht hell.

DCC-DECODER
* Zweisprachigkeit:
DCC nach NMRA-Norm und Analogbetrieb
* Lastgeregelt:
Ob bergauf oder bergab, die Lok fährt immer mit der gleichen Geschwindigkeit.
* Schutz gegen Kurschluss und Überlast:
Die Wirksamkeit des Schutzes wird durch Blinken der Lokbeleuchtung angezeigt.
* bis zu 128 Fahrstufen:
bis 128 Fahrstufen (CV 29 Bit 1= 0|1)
* Lokadressen bis 9999
bis 9999 bei DCC Betrieb
* Einstellbare Anfahr- und Bremsverzögerung:
Anfahrverzögerung CV 3, Bremsverzögerung CV 4
* Sonderfunktionen
Fahrtrichtungsabhängiges Licht kann ein/aus geschaltet werden (f0)
Anfahr-Bremsverzögerung ein/ausschalten (f1)
Geschwindigkeitsreduzierung (f2)
* Mindest- und Höchstgeschwindigkeit
Einstellbare Lokindividuelle Mindest- und Höchstgeschwindigkeit (CV 67, CV 94)
* Motorsteuerkennlinie
Einstellbare Lokindividuelle Motorsteuerkennlinie ( CV 68-93)

Als Dampflokspezialist verwenden wir nicht die einfache 3 Punkt-Kennlinie (CV 2 + 5 +6), sondern die erweiterte Kennlinie CV 67 - CV 94.
Diese Kennlinie kann mit dem TWIN-CENTER komfortabel über die "erweiterte Programmierung" verändert werden.
Wenn eine DCC-Zentrale anderer Hersteller verwendet wird, müssten Sie die CV 67 - 94 einzeln programmieren, was in der Praxis etwas mühselig ist.
Bei unseren DCC-Decodern (nicht bei TWIN) haben Sie die Möglichkeit den Decoder auf die 3 Punkt-Kennlinie einzustellen.
Setzen Sie CV 29 BIT 4 = 0 , dann ist die erweiterte Kennlinie inaktiv.
Jetzt kann die 3 Punkt-Kennlinie verwendet werden:
CV 2 = Vmin
CV 5 = Vmax
CV 6 = Vmitte
Bitte beachten Sie, daß diese Funktion nicht bei TWIN-Decodern verfügbar ist!

Wenn Sie Dampfloks aus unserem Programm mittels 3 Punkt-Programmierung verwenden möchten, müssen Sie darauf achten, daß die Loks mit DCC-Decodern ausgerüstet sind/werden.
In unserem Sortiment erkennen Sie Loks mit DCC-Decodern an einer 8 oder 7 an 5. Stelle (z.B. 7 4046 = Soundlok).
Selbstverständlich können Sie in alle unsere Loks mit Schnittstelle die entsprechenden DCC-Decoder (siehe Legende im Katalog) nach NEM einsetzen.

Wir hoffen Ihnen weitergeholfen zu haben, und wünschen Ihnen weiterhin viel Spass mit der Modelleisenbahn.

Mit freundlichen Grüssen,
Leonard Schmidt
Schulungsleitung/Kundendienst
___________________________________
GEBR. FLEISCHMANN GMBH & CO. KG
Kirchenweg 13, D - 90419 Nürnberg
Postfach 91 01 48, D - 90259 Nürnberg

Telefon: 0911/3370-0 / Telefax: 0911/3370 299
e-mail: [email protected] / www.Fleischmann.de
USt-IdNr.: DE 133252175 / ILN 40 05575 00000 0

Die Gesellschaft ist eine Kommanditgesellschaft mit Sitz in Nürnberg, Registergericht Nürnberg HRA 507.
Persönlich haftende Gesellschafter sind Horst Fleischmann (Dipl.-Kfm.) und die Horst Fleischmann Verwaltungs GmbH mit Sitz in Nürnberg, Registergericht Nürnberg HRB 15115. Geschäftsführer: Horst Fleischmann (Dipl.-Kfm.)
___________________________________

----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 6:22 AM
Subject: Fleischmann BR 218 #6 4236 HO locomotive with decoder

I have a problem with my Fleischmann BR 218 #6 4236 HO locomotive with decoder which I bought from ebay recently. The decoder is 6-pin which unlike the one I have on the Hornby Class 50, it's a 8-pin. The light on the Fleischmann never work and the running noise is quite noticeable....actually it's like a windup toy!
Now I programmed the loco with Hornby Select unit to change the speed step to 14, the lights are working now but still sound like a windup toy, is it normal?

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o12/ms0...in/IMG_4753.jpg

Thanks,
Dennis

Ha....I don't read German, I think it's about the decoder programming.....and they didn't reply the noise issue

Dennis
 

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QUOTE (ms06s_char @ 13 Mar 2007, 05:14) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>What will I expect if I remove those components?


Also, I have a reply from Fleischmann:
Ha....I don't read German, I think it's about the decoder programming.....and they didn't reply the noise issue
Dennis

If you follow my suggestions you should achieve the running qualities you are after.
BTW - I have attended Fleischmann Factory service & DCC courses (as well as the Marklin ones).

E-mailing FLM is a matter of "pot luck", unless you already know exactly who to e-mail !
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
What are these component's function? I see there are 3 tiny things not only at 12 and 1 o'clock and the ceramic disc....

I have a question on the TWIN-Decoder, now it runs at 14 speed steps, and is it true that it can be changed to 28 or 128 speed steps by the TWIN-Center, what will be expected? Will the loco run more smooth? (more smooth acceleration and deceleration rate)

I have a friend which he is a model rail enthusiat, I told him that I put some WD40 and he said it is very serious and need to wipe out WD40 immediately as it is corrosive, so he cleaned the WD40 and put ceramic grease, everthing went fine and we test run it.
Suddenly, there was a white smoke came out from the TWIN-decoder and we figured out the copper coil with graphite on the motor near the decoder socket shorted with the spring cap (see photo from below), the smoke was not came out immediately but after few runs with the light blinking.....quite bright at that moment, we didn't aware but I was not sure and suspicious something wrong. Now it can only run in one direction, another direction will not move and bulb was blinking rapidly. Is the decoder burnt and cannot be fixed? If so I will need a replacement, do you have any suggestion for a replacement decoder because I see many decoders on Fleischmann's website.



Many Thanks,
Dennis
 

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I think you are now at the stage where you need to get the loco to someone who actually has some experience of FLM. The decoder is now almost certainly dustbin fodder & the armature may very well be damaged due to the WD40 shorting the windings & the whole motor probably requires a stripdown.

The FLM decoders are around £40 & a decent Lenz (or other equivelent such as ESU) around £22.

The FLM armature is (without looking it up) around £8.

On my workbench today is another FLM 218 with the same symtoms & some damaged wiring.
 

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QUOTE Suddenly, there was a white smoke came out from the TWIN-decoder and we figured out the copper coil with graphite on the motor near the decoder socket shorted with the spring cap (see photo from below), the smoke was not came out immediately but after few runs with the light blinking.....quite bright at that moment, we didn't aware but I was not sure and suspicious something wrong. Now it can only run in one direction, another direction will not move and bulb was blinking rapidly. Is the decoder burnt and cannot be fixed? If so I will need a replacement, do you have any suggestion for a replacement decoder because I see many decoders on Fleischmann's website.

This is one of the principle reason why I don't like Lenz manufactured decoders - no wrapper no insulation.
 

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By the way, the things with the 'coil spring and graphite rod' are the motor brushes. They run in contact with the copper ring (which is split into poles), hence the deposit on the copper ring. The motor will not run without them.

My guess is you shorted across the motor terminals and blew at least part of the decoder. The motor would probably survive that.

Adrian
 

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I've taken the loco to the local FLN dealer, the confirmed the decoder is burnt and the motor is fine. They have 2 options for the decoder, one is Lenz and the other one is Fleischmann since not many manufacturer make the 6-pole decoder in which Lenz has a lower price.
I'm considering the Lenz one because it is cheaper but I don't find any one can fit in the loco, the mini one is 6 pole but 0.5/0.8A only.....

I start to think the design itself has a problem because it doesn't have any insulation on the electric parts like the spring coil cap, the graphite coil and the decoder, it poses a potential electric shock and fire hazard to consumers, need to issue a global recall.

edit:
+it doesn't have any warning on the instruction sheet, it cannot consider to be a safe product in my opinion.

Dennis
 

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QUOTE (ms06s_char @ 15 Mar 2007, 15:03) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I start to think the design itself has a problem because it doesn't have any insulation on the electric parts like the spring coil cap, the graphite coil and the decoder, it poses a potential electric shock and fire hazard to consumers, need to issue a global recall.

I don't think so.

Fleischmann, and all other model manufacturers in Europe have to get the CE certification. If it was a hazard this would not have been granted.

Regards

John
 

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Don't even think of fitting the Lenz with the six pin plug.

Make sure that the motor current is checked before fitting a new decoder (of any type) - these motors can appear to work OK, but can draw more current that the decoder will take.

Best (if you don't want to fit the FLM decoder) is to get the dealer to hard wire a Lenz or ESU - it's a simple soldering job.

There is no problem with no cover and/or insulation over the brush holders - you get the same voltage accross them as you do on the track - & nobody is suggesting that the track is insulated !
 
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