[Keith Underwood]

Hi everyone
Has anyone had any problems with Bachmann Deltics or Bachmann A1's (both of the 8-pin socket type). Both my locos were running fine but suddenly they do not respond on the track. They are fitted with TCS MC2 decoders (my system is Gaugemaster Prodigy Advance).
I have tried putting them on the program track and reading back the address, which is fine on both. I have put the "blanking plug" back in and run them on a DC test track, which is fine (nice runners in fact). The wheels and track are clean and all other DCC locos are running OK. I have even tried swapping for a couple of spare decoders (Lenz and Bachmann) and, while they still accept programming on the program track and read back their correct addresses, they do not respond on the main track!
I could try hard-wiring the decoders in and by-pass the socket, but I don't know if this will solve the problem, whatever it is!
Any ideas? Or has anyone had a similar thing happen and resolved it?
Thanks
Keith

 

[Keith Underwood]

QUOTE (Paul Crabtree @ 8 Jun 2008, 18:36) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>My next action would be to either deliberately go through the actions of address etc on the programming track, or I would do a factory reset and start again (cv 8 set to 8. It may read 153 as that is TCS's ID number. or on the list I have it also says cv 30 set to 2)
The decoders come with information on the various settings for cv's. I am a novice but have found patience, and trial and error and using this forum gets me there.
Hope this helps
Paul

Thanks for the suggestions Paul and John R. I have tried a "factory reset" cv30 set to 2. It had the expected result of setting back to code "0003" when I read the address again, but the loco still did not respond to this address on the main track. But I will keep trying and let you know if I find the answer.
Cheers
Keith

 

[Keith Underwood]

QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 9 Jun 2008, 03:36) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hello Keith

To reconfirm:
* these two loco's only will not run, all others are fine.
* both loco's will accept programming track instruction with no problem but will not run on the main track.
* decoder reset tried, after which both loco's re-programmed OK but still will not run on the main track.
* alternative decoders tried, both loco's still OK on programming track but still will not run on the main track.
* Both loco's tried on normal DC, seem to run OK.

The fact that all decoders are OK and will programme OK too would indicate that the problem is between the output side of the decoders and the motors - check the following remote possibilities:

reinstall and programme the decoder, test with controller connected to a separate bit of track - not the layout.

reinstall and programme the decoder, test on another layout with another control system.

put one probe of a meter on orange wires socket position - touch both motor brushes to check for continuity - repeat with Gray wires socket position.

Do any of the pins on the 8 pin plug go very close to the chassis when pushed fully home in the socket. If so when the body is on any added pressure can create a short across pins.

do either of the brush to wire contact points sit very close to metal - ditto

is there any solder bridging between pins on the bachmann sockets, or perhaps a super small strand of copper between the pins of the sockets... this is not uncommon

are the pins loose in the sockets, so one isn't making god contact - unlikely but it can happen: to test, very slightly bend the pins connected to orange and gray and re-insert the decoder in socket...

Check motor impedance. If its less than say 30 ohms its very low and motor may be going bad - this happenned a LOT with bachmann motors at the time of the A1 release as they were badly assembled with the bearings not properly seated.

You could also check motor after a few minutes running on DC with a load on it - if its getting warm, its in need of replacement.

Personally at this point, if nothing obvious pops up then my next step would be to disassemble the loco just in case something obvious is missed, reassemble carefully, test on DC then bypass the socket and hard wire the decoder.

Sorry I cannot be more specific.

Regards
Richard
DCCconcepts

Hi Richard
Your confirmation of my problem is correct. Thanks for your very comprehensive reply, its given me a lot to work with. I'll "have a go" and let you know if I have any success.
All the best.
Keith

 

[Keith Underwood]

QUOTE (Keith Underwood @ 9 Jun 2008, 10:14) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Richard
Your confirmation of my problem is correct. Thanks for your very comprehensive reply, its given me a lot to work with. I'll "have a go" and let you know if I have any success.
All the best.
Keith

Have spent the day on the Deltic. After finding no obvious fault I decided to be brave and dismantle the beast. The first thing I noticed was a whole cluster of capacitors under the motor (why Bachmann place these in an inaccessable spot in the bowels of the loco is a bit of a mystery). I had already removed some of these from the circuit board when I first installed a decoder, thinking they were the only ones present (I am obviously too trusting!) Anyway, I removed the offending items in the vain hope that they were causing the problem. After nailing everything back together again (Oh for three pairs of hands!) I tested the loco on DC again and it ran perfectly. So I then replaced the TCS decoder which gave the correct address on the programming track. I then tried it on the main track again - no response! So - next drastic step - I removed the circuit board/socket combo and hard-wired a Lenz chip (which I know is sound) directly to the pick up wires and motor wires. On the program track I read the address OK, so I placed it on the main track in anticipation that I had overcome the problem but - no response!
Oh well, at least I have learned how to disassemble and re-assemble a Deltic! It is now back together with circuit board and blanking plug, happily working on DC until I get the heart/enthusiasm/sheer desparation to have another look at it!

 

[Keith Underwood]

QUOTE (Keith Underwood @ 9 Jun 2008, 17:23) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Have spent the day on the Deltic. After finding no obvious fault I decided to be brave and dismantle the beast. The first thing I noticed was a whole cluster of capacitors under the motor (why Bachmann place these in an inaccessable spot in the bowels of the loco is a bit of a mystery). I had already removed some of these from the circuit board when I first installed a decoder, thinking they were the only ones present (I am obviously too trusting!) Anyway, I removed the offending items in the vain hope that they were causing the problem. After nailing everything back together again (Oh for three pairs of hands!) I tested the loco on DC again and it ran perfectly. So I then replaced the TCS decoder which gave the correct address on the programming track. I then tried it on the main track again - no response! So - next drastic step - I removed the circuit board/socket combo and hard-wired a Lenz chip (which I know is sound) directly to the pick up wires and motor wires. On the program track I read the address OK, so I placed it on the main track in anticipation that I had overcome the problem but - no response!
Oh well, at least I have learned how to disassemble and re-assemble a Deltic! It is now back together with circuit board and blanking plug, happily working on DC until I get the heart/enthusiasm/sheer desparation to have another look at it!
Just an update if anyone is still following this story. I had one last attempt with the Deltic last night - put a Bachmann 36-553 decoder in - coded and confirmed as "21", put it on the main track and it ran perfectly! So I went to bed happy. However, when trying it again this morning, no response again! I then did a factory reset (CV8 - value 08) which set the decoder back to "3", put it on the main track and it ran again on code "3". Switched the system off, came back to it later, tried to run on "3" again - no response! So, I now have an intermittent fault. All other DCC locos are still working fine and the Deltic still runs beautifully when converted back to DC. I have tried everything on Richard's list, taken out the "hidden" capacitors suggested by John, and have now basically run out of ideas. As my locos still perform faultlessly on DC, I am now considering reverting to DC like in the "good old days". It's a shame as I still think DCC has advantages over DC, but I have lost "trust" in the whole thing and would feel happier with the old conventional system. What price "progess" eh!!!!!

 

[Keith Underwood]

QUOTE (Martin71 @ 10 Jun 2008, 15:13) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Keath

I have nothing new to add but give you a bit of moral support. I Know the feeling of stripping down a loco and putting it back together only to have the same problem occur again and again.

One little thing to just thought of it, I assume all wheels are driven, if so put a little dot on the wheels when it stops in dcc in bottom dead centre and see if it stops at this point each time. A long shot I know when this problem occurs with 2 loco's but it may just give you something to work from.

Stick with DCC and I really hope this works out for you ASAP.

Best of Luck Keath.

m

Thanks guys - its nice to know I'm not alone! Of course I will stick with DCC - just having an off day!
Just to update (again!) - I have now had the same thing happen on FIVE different locos! A bit of a nuisance but the upside is that it is beginning to look like a controller/system issue rather than individual locos or decoders.
I will get onto Gaugemaster next to see if they can throw some light on things. Fortunately, I bought the controller directly from them so I feel confident they will give good service. I don't know if anyone has been to the Engine Shed / Gaugemaster shop in Ford down south. I was in the area last October and could have spent all day in their vast emporium!
Will let you all know what happens.
Cheers all.
Keith

 

[Keith Underwood]

QUOTE (wiggy25 @ 10 Jun 2008, 16:44) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I wonder if they will upgrade it to the prodigy advanced squared?

All Gaugemaster items have a lifetime garuantee I believe so you should be sorted!

Cheers

Thanks again Ian and Richard. I have just tried out your suggestions of taking all locos off the track, and running the main track outputs directly to a test track. In both cases, there is no response from a lone loco (even one that worked before!) - they still read back OK on the program track. So I think Gaugemaster will have to sort it.
As always, I'll let you know if and when its been done.
All the best
Keith

 

[Keith Underwood]

QUOTE (upnick @ 11 Jun 2008, 20:24) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I wonder if they will upgrade it to the prodigy advanced squared?

All Gaugemaster items have a lifetime garuantee I believe so you should be sorted!

Hi Keith,

I have the prodigy advance controller from gaugemaster and affter calling them about another item i enquired if the advance could be upgraded to the squared as there is a socket for factory adjustments, and was told it couldnt be upgraded by one of the shop staff and the difference between them was for american locos.

Thanks, Upnick. Funnily enough, I was wondering why they had "upgraded" the spec, especially as the advert says it has extra functions - presumeably for "sound fitted" locos, etc. I do not have any sound enabled DCC locos, but the articles I've read seem to indicate that the Version 1 of the Prodigy Advance already has all the functions required anyway!
I have had my Gaugemaster for over 2 years and was tempted by the new "wires free" Bachmann Dynamis. I know that (currently) it does not support a programming track but the rest sounds pretty good so I have "taken the plunge" and ordered one. For one thing, if my locos work OK with it when I get it, it will confirm that the Gaugemaster unit is definately at fault and I'll get on to them to see what they can do.
I'll keep you posted.
Keith

 

[Keith Underwood]

QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 12 Jun 2008, 14:19) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>*** The REAL reason for the prodigy squared upgrade is actually nothing to do with "US locos" at all! The Gaugemaster answer is factually inaccurate. the "Prodigy advance squared" upgrade is so it does not directy conflict with permitted use of some NMRA standards, and really MUST be done if you want a truly DCC compatible system.

Sure, the functions were there in name in the original software but they totally misused the permitted CV allocations and this meant that the original gaugemaster and MRC software would ONLY access those functions with MRC's own awful sound decoders!

NMRA insisted that they stop using CV numbers they were not entitiled to use as it severely compromised global standards, and so they did the revision to fix this and a few other quirky minor things in the original software.

Once that revision is done, its actually an OK control system at the original MRC Pricing, but I feel its a little exxy at Gaugemaster prices.

Regards

Richard
DCCconcepts

If you have been following my saga, you will know that my Gaugemaster Prodigy Advance eventually gave up communicating with virtually every loco on the layout (at one point it seemed to be "picking them off" one by one!) They continue to read back their correct address on the programming track and still appear to accept CV programming correctly.
Anyhow, I am now the proud owner of a Bachmann Dynamis, which I have plugged in to my system (after unplugging the Prodigy of course). I am pleased to report that locos now work well with the new kit. I was going to get Gaugemaster to have a look at my old controller but, bearing in mind Richard's last comments above, I am wondering if it is worth the bother, especially as I now have a functioning DCC. I may want to move on to sound fitted locos later, and it sounds as if the Bachmann Dynamis would be a better bet for this anyway.
I am going on holiday shortly so I don't want to get involved in correspondence with Gaugemaster at the moment. If I do so when I return, I'll put another message up later.
I havn't had a lot of experience with the Dynamis yet, but I am quite impressed so far. I like the "freedom" aspect of the wireless handset, and the fact that you can put a name for your loco in, instead of just a number! (As they say, little things please little minds!) Talking of which, the steam, diesel or electric icon is a nice touch too!

 

[Keith Underwood]

QUOTE (Keith Underwood @ 13 Jun 2008, 18:27) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If you have been following my saga, you will know that my Gaugemaster Prodigy Advance eventually gave up communicating with virtually every loco on the layout (at one point it seemed to be "picking them off" one by one!) They continue to read back their correct address on the programming track and still appear to accept CV programming correctly.
Anyhow, I am now the proud owner of a Bachmann Dynamis, which I have plugged in to my system (after unplugging the Prodigy of course). I am pleased to report that locos now work well with the new kit. I was going to get Gaugemaster to have a look at my old controller but, bearing in mind Richard's last comments above, I am wondering if it is worth the bother, especially as I now have a functioning DCC. I may want to move on to sound fitted locos later, and it sounds as if the Bachmann Dynamis would be a better bet for this anyway.
I am going on holiday shortly so I don't want to get involved in correspondence with Gaugemaster at the moment. If I do so when I return, I'll put another message up later.
I havn't had a lot of experience with the Dynamis yet, but I am quite impressed so far. I like the "freedom" aspect of the wireless handset, and the fact that you can put a name for your loco in, instead of just a number! (As they say, little things please little minds!) Talking of which, the steam, diesel or electric icon is a nice touch too!
Having returned from holiday I contacted Gaugemaster about the mysterious non-response of locos on the main track. They suggested cancelling an "old style" consist if I had one set up (press Dble Head four times and hit Return) and, guess what, it worked, I don't really know why! All the locos are now responding as normal, so problem solved (hopefully!)
By the way, I asked the question about the "lifetime guarantee" on Gaugemaster controllers, but it only applies to their DC equipment, not DCC (though they did say that they rarely go wrong and, to be fair, my unit is still up and running!)
Keith

 

[Keith Underwood]

I told Gaugemaster that clearing the "old style consist" had cured the problem of non-response of locos on the main track, but I didn't know why this had caused the problem. This was the reply I had from Greg at Gaugemaster which I thought I'd share:
"just to explain a little further. When you unplug a hand controller you get SVDA show on the screen briefly. This signifies that the system is in "SAVE DATA" so that while your unplugged the system runs itself and restores it when you plug in again. This is also useful for saving changes to your 5 stored loco etc 'loco, direction speed steps, lights etc', if on the other hand there is a short circuit the unit will also go into SVDA as it needs to remember what its doing. Now it stores that info in the base unit in the same manner as an OLD CONSIST but if the problem is not resolved and the base unit needs to be shut down the information can remain locked in limbo."

So, there we are, the system was behaving as if "SVDA" was on the screen (although it wasn't), so nothing would respond. I have had SVDA on screen before if a short circuit occured, but obviously this has to be cleared before anything will respond again. So the moral of the story is, always clear an "old style" consist (double head) when you've finished with it!
Incidentally, I only used the "old style" consist as I had recently purchased a pair of Bachmann Class 20's which I wanted to run together, nose-to-nose. They have the new 21-pin decoder sockets so I obtained Bachmann 21-pin chips (36-554) to DCC them, but they do not support CV19 for advanced consisting. If they did, this problem would never have arisen in the first place as I would have used the advanced consist. It is surprising that some more "up-to-date" decoders do not have this function, I suppose Bachmann do this to keep the cost of the decoders down. In future, I'll make sure CV19 is supported on a decoder I wish to purchase, if I want to double-head. As they say, you gets what you pays for!
Oh, and finally as a footnote, I have got hold of a couple if Bachmann 36-559 8-pin to 21-pin adapters, so I can substitute a couple of 8-pin chips which do support CV19.

 

[Keith Underwood]

QUOTE (wiggy25 @ 11 Jul 2008, 12:46) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Just as a further bit of information.

I contacted MRC direct and they will upgrade the Gaugemaster Prodigy Advance to the P.A. Squared.

You have to send your controller back to MRC in New Jersey and they will upgrade it.

The cost is $50 for 1 base station and 1 controller, any extra controllers are done at $25 each.

So if you want to upgrade the option is there.

Cheers
Thanks for the info Ian. If I go down the "sound" route at some point in the future, that is worth knowing as I will probably then need an upgrade.
Cheers

 

[Keith Underwood]

QUOTE (Keith Underwood @ 11 Jul 2008, 14:55) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thanks for the info Ian. If I go down the "sound" route at some point in the future, that is worth knowing as I will probably then need an upgrade.
Cheers
And finally! - The Deltic that started this in the first place turned out to have an intermittent contact on the black wire leading from the motor to the circuit board. So, not only was there a problem with the Prodigy Advance which has now been resolved (as explained previously), there was also another problem with the Bachmann Deltic. Two problems at the same time - I don't do things by halves! Still, it's nice to know that, at the end of the day, there was nothing actually wrong with the DCC as such - all the controllers and decoders are still working normally!
Learning curve well and truly cornered (until the next time!)