[oitoitoi]

Hi guys, I'm looking ahead (way ahead) to when I finish constructing the first stage of my layout (the main station and part of the mainline) and am looking ahead to the second stage. I really want a decent sized dock area where the idea is the trains are supplying a naval vessel (probably a destroyer or frigate depending on space), as I don't have a goods yard I figure the best option would be to combine the two. The layout is set in the 1930's so this dock is a vital part of the arms race (a bit of narrative always improves things). Being in the north east of england (near/in Newcastle) the primary freight will be coal.

However I know next to nothing about the operation of goods yards and not too much about the needs of steam engines so I thought it best to put it to you esteemed forum members, I'm afraid there is no prize but you would have my eternal gratitude!

Anyway to the nuts and bolts.

- Entering the area are three lines; one freight and a double track mainline, this same combination must leave the area too.
- I really want at least one turntable, possibly a second mini one (a homebuild most likely) to load the ship.
- I would like a long straight goods shed, preferably one that can accommodate 4 through lines, however this isn't essential.
- The ship will be situated on the left hand side, towards the bottom of the L shaped board. However don't worry about leaving too much space for it as I can extend it a bit towards the left to accommodate the ship.
- Freight will be arriving from both directions.

Here is a link to a plan of the baseboard that the layout would have to fit:

Baseboard

Don't feel too constrained by the dimensions, there's a bit of flexibility with the width and a few triangular bits can always be added to corners to allow tighter curves (though second radius a minimum please).

Please feel free to go crazy with sidings etc., though bear in mind being a dock there's a lot of opportunity for some good scenics!

Cheers!

EDIT: Here's some inspiration, dock

 

[Brian Considine]

Even in "N" you will need a lot of room, even for smallish ships - there was some recent discussion of ships recently on the forum.

 

[oitoitoi]

I thought about that and I figure much of the dock can simply be implied if you get my meaning.

 

[egg and chips]

A recent issue of Model Rail mag ( december issue ) had a five page article , layout and trackplan for Birkenhead docks , mainly coal waggons that could be adapted for the north-east .

 

[alastairq]

yep..I have a recommendation here....

the author/muddler, Iain Rice, has a useful book published ih 2002/3,by Atlantic publishers, called

''Designs for Urban Layouts''

ISBN 1-902877-08-X

no, it is not a manual for building a model railway in an urban environment.....but a treatise on the author's ideas for designs involving urban railway subjects......rather than rurally-orientated topics.

As such, I found it enlightening....and especially liked the idea for an urban Goods Yard....which I intend tacklng in EM as a plank project.

One section is devoted to the Devonport Dockyard complex....and includes a compact layout plan idea.

Iain Rice quoted a reference which the OP might like to try and get hold of?

''Devonport Dockyard Railway''.......by Paul Burkhalter, published by Twelveheads Press.

the above is a genuine Naval Dockyard, the arson of which I think will still get one hung!

For the scenario the OP painted, it seems ideal??

[I have just checked Amazon, and whilst they themselves are currently out of stock, copies are listed priced between 28-30 quid, both new and used.....?????}

 

[alastairq]

doing a little mopre casual research on naval dockyards [as distinct from harbours or docks of civilian use.....and in that video...if a train traversed a quayside at that speed, there would have been carnage]....shows these establishments to be quite well isolated from surrounding areas by high walls.....secrecy and all that??

Inbound, whilst coal was still used to an extent in smaller, non-combatant Naval vessels, like tugs, etc...[a model of a paddle tug would be quite a peach]....most were into oil firing in a big way by the 1930's.......

http://www.twelveheads.com/tddr.htm

is a link to the book I mentioned above.....with a brief precis, plus , googling 'Devonport Dockyard Railway'' elicits other useful information.

There is no reason to believe a fictitious NE NAval Dockyard would not be organised in a similar fashion??

I note, that not only fuel, but stores of all sorts, foodstuffs, raw materials such as steel and steel plate...munitions.......amamanent of a large nature [nice gun barrels on big weltrols].....but more important than anything else in the 1930's naval environment....as the Devonprt research shows......masssive amounts of passenger transport...in Devonport's case, some weird passenger stock as well..........but in the 1930's, the Royal Navy [or anyone's, really] was quite a labour -intensive outfit......so much passenger transport was needded to manage the influx of matelots......

Take a gander at how this country was organised in WW1 and 2?

For example, in both WW's 1 &2, the entire country north of Inverness was a civilian no-go area, being entirely given over to the sustenance of those northern Naval bases, such as Scapa Flow??

so by creating a model Naval Dockyard [as distinct from a normal, civilian dock or harbour] generates a considerable and varied traffic flow within your main model railway...Naval Dockyards were far from quiet places...so, long passenger trains , etc to handle the increased traffic of naval personnel to and from, needs to be catered for and considered when laying out the main station area....you mention destroyers or frigates?......these required a bit more than a wooden jetty in the middle of nowhere.......on the assumption that the dockyard area isn't the only place naval ships will gather...then many larger vessels would be 'at anchor' out in the roads..ie off board or out of sight....these vessles will recieve repair, replenishment, etc more often than not by lighterage.......said lighters coming from the dockyard proper..........so a nice grey naval vessel alongside [or the IMPRESSION of such] sets the tone....but a gaggle of lighters also alongside, loading, etc, creates a viable atmosphere for traiffic.......also, smaller craft [for ferrying personnel to and from those ships out of view], all give an impression of 'busy, busy'.....

hoards of little 0-4-0 industrial tanks scurrying around......oddball 4 wheel coaches [an excuse for some kitbashing?] in huge numbers to ferry personnel to and from the mainline station.....internal-user stock galore.........everything not-too-scruffy either...this is a Naval dockyard after all....not some scruffy civvy dock like Liverpool....so engines might have a bit of spit 'n polish about them...

go for it matey.......layout will tend to be a bit ''grey'' though....................................

 

[oitoitoi]

Thanks guys, I really didn't realise a naval dockyard would be so different to a normal dock, or that a normal dock would be so different to a standard goods yard! I've been looking around for reasonably priced models of WWII ships in 1/72 scale (close enough to OO) and the most suitable thing I've found is this: Flower Class Corvette

This seems ideal as it could be managed in civilian dockyards which would allow me to have a less complicated (and less shiny!) yard. At 850mm long it seems an ideal size, also it doesn't look 'too war like' which I like for this layout. Considering this dockyard will feature on the line from Newcastle to Edinburgh (closer to Newcastle) probably best it doesn't look too military. Ideally I want a goodsyard where the ship gives some kind of objective to the shunting operations.

I should also clarify that this isn't too specific with the era, it's basically LNER prewar so mid-20's to early 40's is alright.

I found some destroyers from fleetscale but at over £650 with detailing they were well out of my price range (a man can dream though...).

Anyone got a trackplan specific to my baseboard by any chance?

Egg and Chips, what magazine was that? Do you think you could provide a link because I couldn't seem to find it, cheers.

 

[egg and chips]

hi, December 08 issue of Model Rail mag , for back issues : phone 0845 1214000 , £3.60.

As it happens I am ex navy , and yes most warships ran on oil , the flower class corvette did`nt start being used until into the war , depends on how accurate you want to be . Huge amounts of stores were kept in warehouses in Portsmouth dockyard- robbies rolling stock do a dockyard wagon transfers - run on google to find - build a fleet , metcalfes mills cut in half back to the wall , brick walls all around , small locos chuffing around , some coal for heating , warships are refueled and resupplied at sea -not in harbour , so you could have small merchant type tankers , and cargo vessels , painted grey . no railways with personnel on though, station always outside the wall , hope this gives you some ideas

 

[neil_s_wood]

This thread brings back some memories. I remeber studying resource provision at Uni at the tipping point in the use of oil versus coal was the RN's decision to change from coal fire to oil fired engines in the early part of the twentieth century. For a destroyer you would need a fairly large sized naval base such as Rosyth. It would be a fantastic basis for a layout though. I had thought RAF Leuchars (or any other RAF base) would have been good as it is supplied by rail.

 

[72C]

Why not look again at the design for Herculaneum Dock in Liverpool (as already suggested) the dock was served by the Docker's Umbrella and more Here

 

[burkhalter]

I couldn't resist adding a comment to this thread.
As the aformentioned author of the Devonport Dockyard book, I can advise that hanging for arson in a Royal Dockyard is no longer on the statute books! However if anyone visits on one of our open days (but not Navy Days), you can see the working hangmans cell & apparatus. Does wonders for staff discipline!!
Very interested to read about Iain Rice's layout plan based on Devonport. Would anyone be able to let me have sight of a copy of the relevant pages?
Incidentally the Devonport book is still in print and can be ordered through the publisher, as per the link in post from alistairq.

best wishes
Paul Burkhalter

 

[alastairq]

hi Paul..I've scanned the pages and PM'd them to you..I hope they open ok