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QUOTE Many modellers want more than the basic offerings by Hornby and Bachmann

Noting this comment in a DCC discussion it could make for a good general discusion topic.

Its all very well wanting more but at what price?

How many Bachmann Deltics will be sold with sound chips if they come in at the rumoured £70 above the cost of a standard model?


In terms of detailing how much more could Bachmann and Hornby offer?


They are surely at the limits now?


Running qualities cannot be bettered.

Lets accept that older models and rolling stock are having phased updates so no point in referring to older models. Code 100 track is here to stay as anything less falls apart.

Forget the finescale running gear argument. It is not suitable for the masses.

So what more can seriously be done?


And are you prepared to pay the price?


My personal view is that Hornby and Bachmann offer a value RTR mass produced product at a price and that those who want more can upgrade the product themselves to meet their specific criteria with their own money!


Read the Simon Kohler (Hornby's marketing manager) interview again. Simon makes a very valid point:-

http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index...om&page=SK-2005

QUOTE Customers come up and say that if we did that, or this, or something else, they would buy it. However, when you eventually produce the product, those customers who said they would buy it don't!

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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QUOTE Its all very well wanting more but at what price?

I definitely think there is a gap in the market for UK outline made to a Marklin standard. I would buy it and I'm not alone. The main reason I dropped UK modelling in preference for German was due to quality and digital sound, lights, smoke etc. My preference would be for British outline as we ( Britain) made the best looking steam locos and I would far prefer these with the sound and so on. Price is obviously the big issue. If Hornby had these built in China they could under cut the prices associated with continental modelling. I, personally, choose to have fewer models that do more rather than ninety that only move backwards and forwards. I have to admit prior to buying and running continental trains I could not understand why anyone would pay these prices either. Now I own several I do.

QUOTE How many Bachmann Deltics will be sold with sound chips if they come in at the rumoured £70 above the cost of a standard model?

I really wish they had started with steam locos rather than diesel. I would have bought them all but with diesel, I might buy one to try them out.

QUOTE In terms of detailing how much more could Bachmann and Hornby offer?

Nothing, they are as detailed as realistically possible.

QUOTE Running qualities cannot be bettered.

Oh yes they could. The diesels and DMUs are ok but some Hornby steam derail quite regularly. None of my German locos derail at all!


QUOTE So what more can seriously be done?

sound, lights, smoke generator ready, metal bodies, pantographs that go up and down.

QUOTE And are you prepared to pay the price?

I already do. Once we know the price of the UK items it would be interesting to do a poll and find out.

QUOTE My personal view is that Hornby and Bachmann offer a value RTR mass produced product at a price and that those who want more can upgrade the product themselves to meet their specific criteria with their own money!

Some of us don't want to. We want to buy a train that is ready to run with all the extras built in rather than having to spend hours messing around with a soldering iron. I prefer to run trains than modify them.

I think once you have a market used to a certain price then increases don't go down well. Regardless of what extra you offer. So it is going to be hard to introduce higher specs to a mass market. It really comes down to what the individual requires and is prepared to pay.
In the UK there has been a monopoly in this area until about ten years ago when Bachmann came along and it is since then that standards have risen. More competition in the UK market would benefit everyone. I appreciate what Gary is saying about what Hornby and Bachmann. What they make is value for money but I think that the UK outline market is sufficiently big to accomodate a higher spec product as well.
 

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This question is probably more about human psychology than model trains.

It is the essence of human nature that no matter what we get, we ALWAYS want more.
That's why we no longer live in caves - and a jolly good thing too.
 

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QUOTE My personal view is that Hornby and Bachmann offer a value RTR mass produced product at a priceAgree especially with regard to Bachmann.

QUOTE How many Bachmann Deltics will be sold with sound chips if they come in at the rumoured £70 above the cost of a standard model? Probably not as many as they would like. £40 to £50 more and they will sell. The Deltic may be an exception?

QUOTE In terms of detailing how much more could Bachmann and Hornby offer? The effort should go into the robustness of some of the detailing. Too many things are cheap and nasty and as a result more vunerable. Of course there are limits with this degree of fine detail, but todays offerings often fall short of acceptable.

QUOTE They are surely at the limits now? Of course not, look at US and Continental ranges.

QUOTE Running qualities cannot be bettered.Ha Ha Ha!
3 Hornby class 08/09 returned. lubrication of the offending squeal didn't solve the problem. A poor effort!
Over greasing of Bachmann gears and jerky operation of some locos.

QUOTE So what more can seriously be done?
And are you prepared to pay the price? The quality has indeed improved (classes 57, 60 and 66 for eg.), but there is more that can be done.
Pay more? If it's value for money, yes. You don't have to go to Marklin levels of build to get a much better product.
I hope competition is the key to this gradual improvement, as we will soon see with DCC fitted products.

 

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QUOTE I too always want more especially if either Bachmann or Hornby start producing Era I or whatever you call Early locomotives. If they did then even I would start buying some.

There will always be a demand for new locomotives of whatever persusion although the big consideration here is commercial viablility.

I was thinking more about enhancements and improvements to existing product and the viability here given that we could be asked to pay more!

Agreed that it is very difficult to see how Hornby and Bachmann could improve on detail although to their credit they do seem to manage it year on year!


I think its more the areas under the skirt/kilt where there is room to enhance the picture.

However what is going to be the cost of this to the consumer and are these sort of improvements the sort of thing the typical railway modeller is willing to pay extra for?

Lights, sound, smoke, finescale enhancements and even better running are possibly the only catagories for consideration. DCC readiness with chips all prefitted?

This lot could more than double or even triple the cost of a loco!


A quick check does indeed confirm that full spec steam locos in Europe with all of the above are £300 or more!


Happy modelling
Gary
 

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QUOTE A quick check does indeed confirm that full spec steam locos in Europe with all of the above are £300 or more!

So that leaves us back to where we started in all of these types of threads.

BTW There must be a tariff on German locomotives (Must be a Hornby plot) in the UK because you all seem to pay more for them than anywhere else.
 

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>Lights, sound, smoke, finescale enhancements and even better running are possibly the only catagories for consideration. DCC readiness with chips all prefitted?

That would probably do for me, but the DCC chip would have to be the same calibre as a Lenz Gold. Putting a £10 chip into a £300 quid loco is a false economy. On the sound side, I would like it to be synchronised with the wheels so that if you get wheel slip, you get the sound to match. Oh and I'd like ZTC's "Real Feel" ™ as well.

David
 

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>I'm afraid to ask
Then I won't scare you....

maybe DCC is more nerdy than I thought


David
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
QUOTE A quick check does indeed confirm that full spec steam locos in Europe with all of the above are £300 or more!

QUOTE So that leaves us back to where we started in all of these types of threads.

Maybe I should have titled the thread "Do UK modellers really want more?"

I remain unconvinced that UK model railway enthusiasts have the stomach for a £300 RTR loco although they do have the stomach for the extras. Maybe Hornby or Bachmann should come up with sound and smoke kits so that the basic models remain at the current pricing levels and those who want the sound and smoke can purchase the kits. Future models would have of course have to be designed to accomodate the fitting of these.

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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>Maybe Hornby or Bachmann should come up with sound and smoke kits
I'd go for that. I'd even pay a small premium for the "installments" version. But it would be nice if you didn't have to dismantle part of the valve gear first

David
 

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QUOTE QUOTE
In terms of detailing how much more could Bachmann and Hornby offer?
The effort should go into the robustness of some of the detailing. Too many things are cheap and nasty and as a result more vunerable. Of course there are limits with this degree of fine detail, but todays offerings often fall short of acceptable.

Right on the button. While the detail has improved it is flimsy and makes the locos fragile. On Marklin/Trix locos the detail parts are metal and you would need pliers and a fair bit of pressure to pull them off. With the new Hornby you could probably blow the detail parts off.


As for build quality goes look at Dougs review of the Flying Scotsman comments. This is less than a year old and the build quality is dubious.

QUOTE A quick check does indeed confirm that full spec steam locos in Europe with all of the above are £300 or more!

You're looking in the wrong place. Not intentionally I hope! These are around 300 euros if you buy them from Germany. So that would be 200 quid.


There is a reason so many people are into continental modelling and its not just because we all love German trains more than British. The problem with UK outline is the lack of competition. That is why the UK outline is so far behind the rest of the modelling world. One company has dominated here for too long and most UK modellers know nothing else. In Germany and the USA competition has led to offering better value and features. Hornby are still knocking out some products they did when I was a kid 25 years ago and they haven't changed at all. I reckon wait and see what happens with the Bachmann digital locos.
 

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I'm afraid that this topic is quickly heading south. Should I close it now or wait till it really get nasty?


I have a question, and I ask this seriously. Do most British steam locomotives have internal plumbing or is it just missing from the model? Both continental and American locomotive models seem to have a lot more detail or is this misleading?. The other question is take a look at the trucks on the Alco from PCM. They seem a lot more detailed than what I see on Hornby Diesels, is this also misleading?
 

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QUOTE I'm afraid that this topic is quickly heading south. Should I close it now or wait till it really get nasty?

We should at least wait till three rail Pete gets here. I'm sure he would be gutted if this was closed down before he contributed.

QUOTE Do most British steam locomotives have internal plumbing

What do you mean by internal plumbing?
 

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QUOTE (Dennis David @ 18 May 2006, 18:17) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>So that leaves us back to where we started in all of these types of threads.

BTW There must be a tariff on German locomotives (Must be a Hornby plot) in the UK because you all seem to pay more for them than anywhere else.

May have escaped your attention but we pay more for everything over here than anywhere else. Its even cheaper to imporrt a land rover from abroad than buy from a UK dealer.

Any way back to the subject matter
Lighting please oh and smoke would be nice. Detail that doesn't drop off if you stare at it too hard. Forget the metal bodies the damn things are heavy enough overall anyway but metal setail should be minimum standard on all new rtr loco's or is the fact that they did it 30 years ago reason enough to render it obsolete? Bogies that don't come apart at the seams and metal drive gears would be nice in order to help longevity especially as no one wants to supply spares these days even for production models. Sound is ok but at what cost? the bachmann announcement seems like a hastily contrived reaction to the hornby catalogue to such an extent they still don't dare put a price tag on it. I suppose after that the only thing left to make more accurate wil be the worlds first 1:76 scale weight loco
 
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