Drummond T9`s & sound decoders?

QUOTE (Barnowl @ 30 Nov 2008, 00:08) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I was thinking more on the lines of more authentic to the loco rather than sounds like.

*** Thats a very curious sentence!

Sound files have to be correct for the loco, but I don't understand the comment = if it truly sounds like the loco, it must be authentic and vice versa.
The notable exceptions are real "in revenue work" sounds vs sound of restored locos - for example, loco's like the G2...

If the restored G2 is used as a recording source then it would be easier to re-create but simply WON'T sound like the G2 should sound - The "In-service" loco wheezes like an asthmatic grandmother thanks to worn Joy Valve gear and worn and leaky seals etc... and it has a very weak and "windy" LNWR whistle on the many recordings I have from the 40's/50's and 60's, yet the restored loco chuffs quite differently as subtle changes during restoration and use of modern materials for seals and glands give a different result to those used years ago.

Loco's like this take forever to get right compared to better maintained front line loco's such as the A4 and Duchess... I've now been working on the LNWR/LMS G2 for over two years on and off and am still not happy with it... it will be released when its ready and to us, 100% right, which means sounding like the recordings I have of them hauling coal through Tring cutting almost before I was born!

I do wonder if people who eventually buy them will actually care as much as we do - and to those who have only heard them in restored form, which will sound right? It will probably become like the constant discussion over colours - everyone with an opinion, and nobody with anything but hearsay & guesses to verify their opinions.

Having said that, simply knowing the truth and having access to the right sounds isn't enough - how they are cut and assembled into the 60+ separate sound files needed to make a convincing steam sound set, and how those individual files are related to each other during operation ie: acceleration and deceleration or under load or not are all very critical - in fact, the editing and production is in the end far more important than the original source quality!

I don't know how others do it but I am personally very fussy about the "authenticity" of everything in Steam loco models, including sound. So are my review people, a couple of them are men who drove many of these locos, 2 of them having started as young boys before BR came into being and not leaving until after the end of steam!

Fortunately one of them finished his time on southern lines and at nine elms shed so I have a good set of ears for a critic of the "coming soon" T9's sound file, and one watched & spotted G2's and most of the MR, L&Y loco's and the later Staniers pass his window were the lines converge close to Canada Dock on the approach lines to Liverpool every day.

We are lucky we have the chance to create sound for our models when we do - in a very few years, those who REALLY knew what steam sounded like in everyday service will all be dead and gone.... and all we will then have is the imperfect sound of restored loco's and a few low fidelity recordings to go by...

Richard

PS: Martin, thanks for the vote of confidence, but some sound files can't be rushed... many of those you hear were finished recently but I started work on them long ago.they really can take a very long time to evolve...

Hi Richard
Having read Martins reply and the words "very prototypical sound" it did concern me what that actually meant.
All kind of things get conjured up in your mind. `Sounds Like `was just such a thing.
I associate the phrase `sounds like` when a sound(s) have been totally digitally produced.
As oposed to taking an actual recording of the sound produced & then converting to whatever format is needed.
I accept that the sound does need to be edited/enhanced etc so that it does sound authentic when played back through a small speaker.
Having done a fair amount of home video editing over the years I aware of what can be achieved.
But the original sound (in my case video) is there as the source.
I for one cannot say at this time if a certain sound is a A3 or A4 loco.
My experiences are some what limited and I would have to trust the word of who ever was selling the product.
Having read through your comments I can see that you would be such a person.
As a new comer to this hobby there is a lot to take in.
And to spend about £100 on just a sound decoder with sound is a big outlay.
It is all too easy in this day & age to grab a sound from somewhere & say it is such & such loco.
I have a Bauchmann Super G2 with a Howes sound decoder fitted & it sounds authentic to me but I suspect somewhere someone will say that its not really.
I trust Howes that it is and it really enhances the atmosphere of my growing layout so I am looking to buying more.
I have too trust & as I am new to this hobby but not to life it self I look for evidence to support that trust.
The internet can be a good source for that but it can also be its worst enemy.
It will not be long before it becomes almost impossible to verify that a certain sound is of that loco and so keep up the good work.

If you like the sound that is all that matters (ie, in relation to the G2).

Its always a problem knowing what people really want - I often find this with long service diesels as the sound changes a LOT over the loco's life, as emission and noise regulations change the nature of the way the loco breathers etc... Sometimes, they are totally repowered as well!

I once spent ages getting a particular US diesel sounding dead right for a client and he looked disappointed when he heard it so I asked him what was wrong - he said "its nice, but it doesn't sound like my friends loco you did". Well... his friends loco was a GM and the loco I'd worked on for him was an ALCO - chalk and cheese! In the end I simply loaded his Alco with the GM sounds and he was happy as can be... Wrong technically, but his choice as its his loco, and who am I to tell him he couldn't have it .... I just wish he'd said what he wanted early on!

Synthesising isn't a problem in any way as long as the original is the reference it is created from - In fact it can be essential as older recordings are often muddy and have no dynamics at all, so can't be used for a sharp whistle or high energy "chuff" for example.

In the real world of recorded sound as you may know, sometimes, such as in modern movies, the sound is nearly 100% synthesised - for example, car and engine sounds for many car chase scenes (such as in "gone in 5 minutes") are totally 100% recreated from nothing with software in the edit suite and there is NO real world engine sound used - this is done to get better quality and dynamics, therefore making it better.

In the end its the accuracy of the result that is important, not the process.

Regards

Richard