[Makemineadouble]

As Bachmann got the hump with our forums and became "unco-operative", I've lost intrest in their pathetic press statements. Produce the models I want and I may I'll buy them period. For me they lost a lot of public goodwill with their pedantic performance. We deserve a better relationship. The sooner Bachmann adopt a more realistic and friendly attitude to their customers the better.

 

[Makemineadouble]

There's the nail on the head buy a top range DCC system, not necessarily Lenz, and you should'nt be disapointed.

. Why is it these companies want to eat the whole cake, and often end up not doing anything well. I don't see Goodyear wanting to manufacture cars, or Ford Tyres. Why then should Hornby or Bachmann want to do DCC badly. The mind boggles.

I did hear the Bachmann system is already out in the States ?

 

[Makemineadouble]

QUOTE Or it can become mass -market: a control system for general use. Until now , the cost has been prohibitive for most people. For someone with 100 locos and a sizeable layout - and there are a surprising number of them out there- , the cost of "going DCC" with top end equipment across the border , as recommended by most existing DCC enthusiasts would be about £3000 to £4000 : near to the sort of money most families spend on their main car

This is not the way most people tackle DCC. You can buy a top unit for well under £400 including a transformer.
Then normally loco's get converted perhaps starting with 10 at a time and then 5 at a time. Very often some of the 100 loco's you mention so are old, junk and not suitable for conversion. (typically old tender drives and some open frame motors). So this expense to probably 50% of what was claimed at around £2000.00 spread over a longer period. I am assuming the decoder installation will be done by the owner. This argument is often brought up on Pat Hammond's Model Railway Express normally by some obscure expert.
There's no nice way to put this:
DCC systems with features cost money, Decoders with the features that you probably want cost money, so if you've made the decision to go DCC don't bleat about the cost
You simply have to accept that the Hobby has moved on and if you want the goodies you have to pay the price.
From what I've seen at Warley and if I was looking for a budget system the Bachmann Dyamis is possibly going to be your best bet. I'd like to see a few more details about the turnout operating specification, but up front I think Bachmann have made a good decision to wait and get the specifications right, rather than rush like Hornby. I have deliberately not added further comment about the Hornby system as it's been well covered in other forums.
Another point if you buy cheap decoders don't expect good DCC performance. It stands to reason that if you buy a good DCC setup your going to compromise performance by buying budget decoders.

BTW I don't regard myself as a DCC expert. I been using DCC since 1994 that makes 12 years of use. I regard myself as a power user, I give good solid practical experience.

 

[Makemineadouble]

If you want budget go to a pound shop.

 

[Makemineadouble]

QUOTE We now know the Elite is a full 4 digit address system

Sorry it is not a full four digit address system. According to Hornby's specifications, it apparently does program in the 4 modes. This is entirely different to four digit addressing.

I repeat that if you buy cheap and go for so called bargains you will be sorry you didnt buy a full spec system. Budget entry systems are budget for a reason, quite simply they don't offer features. So if you want to take full advantage of DCC it stands to reason to buy the best control unit you can afford. With the best hand set that you like.

If on the other hand you only want a simple system fine. Expect an amps limitation, limit on the addresses that the system can use. If you have sound and other features they may not work, with the next generation of feature packed sound decoders. You will have DCC with many of it's advantages. The reality is manufacturers will not drop prices just because folks in the UK are taxed out of existence, most other countries have much more disposable income.

There is one exception in the budget range that offers a full and complete system on a budget and that is the
Digitrax Zepher. Even this restricts amps to 2.5 .

There's no techno garble in this view point just plain and simple logic.

QUOTE Didn't Alan Sugar and Clive Sinclair and their supporters take similar flak from IBM users in the 1980's when they bought computers out for the masses?

And look at the rubbish they produced, Sinclar spectrum running on a 4 track tape, well if that's your idea of DCC you really are in another sphere. For a few pennies more you can have a real system, and not see the
secondhand & E Bay market flooded in 12 months time by second hand Tesco DIY DCC units.

 

[Makemineadouble]

QUOTE When talking to people about DCC & converting I ask people that very same question. Often, as they don't run them all they use changing to DCC as a good reason to do some housekeeping (& raise some useful funds).

Very well said I'm currently doing that same thing, I have stock coming out of nooks and crannies everywhere
its time for some serious rationalisation.

 

[Makemineadouble]

This is the proverbial cut and paste from Hornby's Web site where does it say the Elite can handle 4 Digit addresses, in the range 0-9999.

Please go and read the specification for yourself and don't make things up Oakydoke

................................................................................
............................................................................
The Hornby "Elite" Digital Controller is more than capable of answering the needs of most railway layouts - twin control with press dial function, 17 button alpha numeric keyboard, wide function LCD screen, four amp power, as well as having the capabilities of registering 254 locomotive addresses as well as 255 solenoid powered accessory addresses (including point control), plus a USB portal for linking to a Personal Computer.

The Hornby "Elite" unit is an ideal way for the enthusiast to take their train control to a new and advanced level.

The following are just some of the many features and benefits that the Hornby "Elite" Digital Control has to offer:

* Controls up to 10 trains simultaneously, provided the necessary power is available.
* The 4 amp power supply included allows for up to nine locomotives (providing power is available) to be running at any one time.
* The four amp power supply allows for 3 amps to the track with 1 amp to the accessory outlet.
* Incorporates 128 speed steps for smooth control of locomotives.
* Can programme locomotives with up to 99 levels of acceleration / deceleration.
* The "Elite" Unit supports up to nine functions per locomotive if required.
* Able to programme up to 254 locomotives or other items containing a locomotive decoder and 255 points or other items that rely on a solenoid for operation. Eg. Electrically operated signals, electrically operated uncouplers and point motors.
* The "Elite" accommodates decoders that incorporate a functioning feed back system.
* Supports XpressNet protocol.
* A PC interface socket allows for the upload of new firmware and the use of third party applications.
* Uncontrolled 15V DC analogue accessory outlet.
* An LCD screen supports alpha numeric information input.
* External boosters can be supported through the XpressNet port or by direct connection to the booster outputs. A standard RJ12 six-way cable can be used to connect the Select to a booster which has an RJ12 socket).
* Up to 8 "Select" units can be connected to the "Elite" for individual control of 9 locomotives providing power is available.
* The "Select" can be used as a Walkabout Unit when connected to the Hornby "Elite" Digital Unit.
* The "Elite" unit is Railcom® Lenz Syztems enabled. This communication (occupancy detection) method between a locomotive and controller will not function until the necessary software becomes available. This exciting development enables messages to be sent back to a PC via the XpressNet port. Railcom allows communication from the locomotive to the controller. Occupancy detection and the relaying of location information to a controller and from a controller to a PC will require occupancy detection hardware and a change to the specification of XpressNet and Railcom.
* Separate Programming Track Outlet
* The "Elite" is capable of speed profiling locomotives for "double heading".

 

[Makemineadouble]

QUOTE f you have looked at the Hornby web site (old one now defunct), you will have found their DCC info scattered all over. In FAQ they stated months ago that the Elite was capable of 4 digit addressing, but they failed to mention the address range in the spec. I guess Hornby have brought upon themselves a difficult task in regaining DCC credibility for the Elite?

Before commenting on the above. As a general statement of intent, I genuinely sorry that Hornby have missed their initial target of launching a product with which consumers can have confidence in. I feel this is a great opportunity lost. Pity, because expectation bred desire, impetus had created a market which now needs to be filled. That market will partially filled by other products. Oakydoke with respect I have no intention in getting into yet another war of speculation on specifications (I like that

) Hornby need to sort out their product and it's compatability problems if they exist, and Bachmann have a flyer with a picture. And hey I have a fully featured DCC system with all the bells and whistles how about that

So do I need to worry, not a bit.

Anyone else for On30 or am I alone.

 

[Makemineadouble]

I agree the Dynamis if it has route control and the potential to control 20 turnouts might just be the budget snake in the grass. Of course 6 months ago the Elite was the new system. I think I might just sit this new dance out !
Has anyone heard of this new control system called DC ? I hear it's going to be the next new thing, just fancy you don't need decoders, just a good old thing called common sence, and two miles of wire, and a ton of plugs and switches.

Money should'nt be your main criterion when choosing any system. Perhaps DCC isn't for you ?. It's surprising how well my new On30 kit goes with straight DC.

Features are the most important thing of any DCC system. I'm on record of having stated this in my first post on this forum. Unlike when I first started in DCC punters are spoilt for choice, the ideal that manufacturers will drop their price rather than specifications is erroneous, "you only get what you pay for". The very fact that this debate has been so intense illustrates the general interest in DCC. If I was starting in DCC I probably too would want to test the waters before committing to a large investment. Given today's choice I probably would be as confused as some who have posted here. If in doubt about what to buy, choose a system which is proven, that way you'll know any lack of performance is your fault not the system you've chosen.

 

[Makemineadouble]

Yes I did wonder what happened to the Digitrax sponsorship. I did see AJ Ireland there lending support to the local agents. I purchased decoders and ordered a Forney with on board sound from Mac's right across the way from SCC .

 

[Makemineadouble]

QUOTE I think the item you are referrencing above was actually one by my father, Paul Plowman. He attempted to bring some reality to the argument of 'I've got hundreds of locos to chip, DCC is too expensive for me'.

Actually I was not referring to your Esteemed father at all. Do you recall a letter in the Railway toddler a few months back from a Clive Heradus I think it was, this was followed up by a similar posting and objection based partly on cost Pat Hammond's site. I hope that clears that up.

 

[Makemineadouble]

QUOTE I like others am trying to decide which system to get, and am prepared to go a little further than a basic outfit but not up to the levels of ZTC which at 500 plus seems a little ridiculus to me I can get a 32" digital tele for that.
In this discussion I picked up on the Ecos system and went to have a look at it on the web and down loaded the manual.

I strongly urge you to read all you can about DCC. Buy a book or two they will always come in useful and may help you to make up your mind. Better still find someone else that's already converted to DCC. I would suggest that ZTC is totally over priced and short on features. Forget about the niceties of the train driver control panel, fully featured handsets are what count, with ease of control not silly little consoles that remain in a fixed position. I would say for about £300 quid you can buy a top end system, which will be fully expandable. Do some research at shows, and keep reading.

 

[Makemineadouble]

QUOTE MMaD - when you switch to DC I would like an option to buy your Digitrax system, or maybe we could swap it for my DC controller and miles of cable

I think you have the wrong person here Johann - when have I ever been in favour of dropping DCC and going back to DC "Hell will freeze over first" "my mate".
see my last posting on this subject Dynamis

MMaD

 

[Makemineadouble]

There you are you've found me out--------------I'm really passionate about DC. I'm just wondering what's I'm going to be associated with next, Clock work, or push along.
I might try a Dynamis Pro on my On30 study layout. I'm about to start laying track at last.

 

[Makemineadouble]

It good to know we all have a sence of humour Gary. Some are more twisted than others !