DYNAMIS

Calm down chaps!
There's truth in what most people are saying and a lot of talk at crossed purposes here.

We now know the Elite is a full 4 digit address system with all 4 programming modes (whatever that means).
The Select is a Toy Train Set controller as well as a basic budget model. Probably not the right choice for a convertee to DCC, more of a first entry to model/toy trains.

Personally I wouln't advise someone with experience or an existing/established layout to go for the sub-£50 budget systems. The sub-£100 systems are more suited to their needs.
Only experience will infom them if they need or should upgrade or replace their system with a top end model later on.
By all means go straight for a top-end system if you wish; that's a matter of personal choice and part of the desion making process that prospective purchasers will have to deal with.

The situation has completely changed from 18 months ago when budget entry level meant a Lenz compact with its limited ability.
At the same price point we now have several systems that can easily out-do or can compete with some systems costing around the £200 mark.
E.g Why a Prodigy or ZTC505 when the PowerCab can do loads more for £94 ?
These new sub-£100 systems will certainly satisfy most peoples requirements, possibly with a couple of add-ons later.

There may be more info on the Elite on the NEW Hornby Website that looks as if it's coming on-line today?

Bachmann look to have stolen a technical lead in the market with th Dynamis, but we'll have to wait until next month to find out the full details.

DCC at the turning point?
Well yes but it's more of a certainty. There is no question of "if the price is right", look at what's on offer or coming soon. Prices are coming down.
Bachmann look to be going all-out for total DCC because thats where the RTR market is going.
Looking around Warley that was self evident with the size of the DCC presence.

Oh yes, you could also buy a MultiMouse train set at Warley too, although the price wasn't competative.

Cheer up everyone, this is all positive news that should help advance the hobby.

QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 5 Dec 2006, 18:52) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>This is the proverbial cut and paste from Hornby's Web site where does it say the Elite can handle 4 Digit addresses, in the range 0-9999.

Please go and read the specification for yourself and don't make things up Oakydoke
MMAD, I wasn't intending to be offensive, just pointing out, as reported here there and everywhere, that Hornby have finally addressed the question most widely asked, namely does the Elite use 4 digit addressing. The answer is yes it does, as posted here in this thread.

Ravenser has provided one quote I was going to use to convince you:
"The chap on the Hornby stand today seemed quite helpful, and when I asked about addressing with the Elite he assured me that it can use 255 addresses. THOSE 255 ADDRESSES CAN BE ANYTHING BETWEEN 0 AND 9999.

The restriction to 255 is how many addresses it can store. (thats twice what a set 100 can manage, and SIXTEEN times what a ZTC511 can handle).

Andi (Dell)"

I also heard this from Hornby (it must have been repeated a thousand times during the weekend).

QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 5 Dec 2006, 18:52) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Please go and read the specification for yourself and don't make things up Oakydoke
Really, was that called for?

If you have looked at the Hornby web site (old one now defunct), you will have found their DCC info scattered all over. In FAQ they stated months ago that the Elite was capable of 4 digit addressing, but they failed to mention the address range in the spec. I guess Hornby have brought upon themselves a difficult task in regaining DCC credibility for the Elite?

Some comparative figures.

Max no of locos & functions

Digitrax Zephyr..........10 / 9
Super Emp. Builder.....22 / 9
Super Chief..............120 / 13
ZTC511.....................16 / 9
Hornby Elite.............255 / 13
Lenz Set 100............255 / 13
Bachmann Dynamis ..40? / 20
Roco MultiMouse........10 ? / 20

Of course this doesn't tell half the story.

QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 5 Dec 2006, 22:11) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The Dynamis does look more promising and it will be interesting to see what it offers. It does look like they will wait till Hornbys committed themselves before they reveal facts as they will have learned a lot from Hornbys mistakes with their systems.
A bit late for Bachmann to change things now, I would think?

QUOTE We are all going to buy systems that are appropriate for our needs but just beware, when you buy, what the limitations are of the system you choose. To be honest I don't really give a monkeys what system you buy but like MMaD says don't come back bleating when you find out you paid peanuts and got a s t system. You were warned. ..and we'll laugh at you.
The mistake you are making is assuming all budget systems will be "shit".
Limited , to a greater or less degree, of course that's to be expected; but some are not far behind £200+ systems.
What do we mean by budget systems anyway? Are we referring to price or spec?
The whole game has changed. A year ago the Lenz Compact was considered a decent budget system. Now it's hopelessly outclassed on spec. and price. ZTC introduced the "budget" 505; £200 for a system that looks puny against the NCE PowerCab selling for £94.

I like Ravensers sub £50 budget, £100 ( + or -) mid-priced idea. Everything over £120 will have to justify itself with full capability and a pretty good features list.
The £150 to £200 systems currently on offer are starting to look poor value. The £200+ systems are safe for now, but some of these top systems will need updating if they are to remain competative (eg. Lenz LH100 handset).

Let's not forget that a MultiMouse or PowerCab may be all that someone needs, and if you have a SPROG too, well?
However a Select at £45 is always going to disappoint a lot of those with more than a basic train set.
Possibly the Dynamis will give us a lot more bang for our $$$. Let's hope that's the case.

QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 5 Dec 2006, 22:35) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Before commenting on the above. As a general statement of intent, I genuinely sorry that Hornby have missed their initial target of launching a product with which consumers can have confidence in. I feel this is a great opportunity lost. Pity, because expectation bred desire, impetus had created a market which now needs to be filled. That market will partially filled by other products.
Totally agree.

QUOTE Oakydoke with respect I have no intention in getting into yet another war of speculation on specifications
Not speculation. this is what Hornby have said all weekend at Warley! As reported by others.
Hornby may be back peddling/firefighting or simply clarifying matters.
I don't care because I'm thinking about moving up to an ECoS.

QUOTE Anyone else for On30 or am I alone.

I'm sorely tempted having seen some fantastic On30 models at Warley. They were something else.
Backwoods Minitures stand in particular.

Just found this on Hornby's new web site under Customer Support - FAQ:

Q. What is the maximum number of functions that the controllers have?
A. The Select controller supports 9 functional outputs, and the Elite controller supports 13.

Q. What addressing format does the Hornby DCC system use?
A. The Select unit uses two digit addressing, whereas the Elite unit uses four digit addressing.

This was also on the old web site, that's why Lisa's table entry looked familiar.

I had a good look at the ECoS at Warley. The number of locos quoted is for the database. I think the actual roster is much smaller, but adding another loco downloads all the parameters from that database.
Selecting a loco from the roster is easy; select roster and it pops up instantly on the big screen. Scroll if necessary (very quick), and touch the one you want. 1 or 2 seconds if that!
The alpha-numeric name can be up to err ?? I think it was 12 characters? (not sure) and you can have an icon of the exact loco as well.
The display is not in colour though.
It's also quite big, not something you would want to pick up to use.

QUOTE I would still regard Hornbys elite as a budget system, anything under a ton is. Mid priced is 100 to 200quid
That's where we'll agree to differ.
I think the whole market is about to change /is changing, and our concept of price points and system capabilities is being challenged by these new products.
Anyway are we talking about price or capability/specification?

I'm playing devils advocate here, for instance; last year I would have called the Digitrax Zephyr an entry level or budget system. Well it still is the entry point for Digitrax if that's the way you wish to go, but at the current price it couldn't be classed as budget. The Zephyr on it's own doesn't seen to stack up well against a couple of the £100 units although it's still very good (my opinion anyway).
Is it now mid-priced with an entry level spec? or an overpriced entry entry level system?

Similarly the Lenz Compact; in terms of value for money pitched against similarly priced new products, it now looks very poor. Now if they sold it for under £50 against the E-Z Command or Select ? It won't happen and I think it may be replaced soon anyway.
The Compact is definately "basic" or sub-entry level, but is priced against much better spec'd systems.
Basic/Sub-entry at entry level price ?

What is available between £120/150 and £220 ?
Gaugemaster/MRC prodigy Advance
ZTC 505
Digitrax Zephyr
Lenz Set 90

The more I think about it, the choice is between £100- and £240+, the systems in the middle don't have enough going for them. Just my view, you don't have to agree with it .

Cheers everyone.

QUOTE (Gary @ 6 Dec 2006, 07:13) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>From the Hornby faq:-

Q. Will the Hornby DCC system be available outside the UK?

A. Both the 'Select' and 'Elite' units will be available to purchase in Mainland Europe, USA, Australia and New Zealand - the 'Elite' unit will support five languages - English, French, German, Italian and Spanish.

Thats new information. It does look as if Hornby have identified the requirements for global markets and decided to tweek the specification of the Elite. Clearly Hornby have had expressions of interest from outside the UK.
....Happy modelling
Gary
Gary, that isn't new information. Right from the beginning, they have said these products will be sold under several of their brand names (eg. Lima, Joeuff, Electrotren, Hornby).

Hornby have gone international in order to not only grow but to safeguard the companies future. The UK market is seen as stagnent with little growth potential (even a slow demise) and this is why their main thrust is now into different markets and also different products (Airfix).

In order to compete in markets like Germany, you have to have DCC, especially if you are re-launching brands with a new image.
Possibly the economics of a UK only system wouldn't work either?
For these reasons I'm sure the DCC project was conceived with a larger target audience in mind than just the UK.