DYNAMIS

QUOTE (Ravenser @ 4 Dec 2006, 20:39) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Or it can become mass -market: a control system for general use. Until now , the cost has been prohibitive for most people. For someone with 100 locos and a sizeable layout - and there are a surprising number of them out there- , the cost of "going DCC" with top end equipment across the border , as recommended by most existing DCC enthusiasts would be about £3000 to £4000 : near to the sort of money most families spend on their main car

As far as the technical side goes I'm keeping out of this one untill we have actual facts, however I just have to question your maths ( & BTW, myself, Neil & MMaD have never as "most existing DCC enthusiasts" or "self proclaimed experts" as referred to by another member recommended that the only route is "top end" - we have only pointed out that some entry level systems are just that - nothing wrong with them at all but limited with their upgradability.)

2 x examples ;

100 x Locos 100 x Lenz Silvers @ £20.00 (quality decoder) £2,000
Lenz Set LH 100 £250.00
Now that adds up to £2,250 (or it did when I went to school) - that's well short of the £3/4,000 you quoted.

or
100 x Gaugemaster Decoders @ £17.50 (good quality "middle of road") £1,750
Gaugemaster Prodigy Advance @ 185.00
£1,935 - not even 50% of your higher figure.

QUOTE Or it can become mass -market: a control system for general use. Until now , the cost has been prohibitive for most people. For someone with 100 locos and a sizeable layout - and there are a surprising number of them out there- , the cost of "going DCC" with top end equipment across the border , as recommended by most existing DCC enthusiasts would be about £3000 to £4000 : near to the sort of money most families spend on their main car

This is not the way most people tackle DCC. You can buy a top unit for well under £400 including a transformer.
Then normally loco's get converted perhaps starting with 10 at a time and then 5 at a time. Very often some of the 100 loco's you mention so are old, junk and not suitable for conversion. (typically old tender drives and some open frame motors). So this expense to probably 50% of what was claimed at around £2000.00 spread over a longer period. I am assuming the decoder installation will be done by the owner. This argument is often brought up on Pat Hammond's Model Railway Express normally by some obscure expert.
There's no nice way to put this:
DCC systems with features cost money, Decoders with the features that you probably want cost money, so if you've made the decision to go DCC don't bleat about the cost
You simply have to accept that the Hobby has moved on and if you want the goodies you have to pay the price.
From what I've seen at Warley and if I was looking for a budget system the Bachmann Dyamis is possibly going to be your best bet. I'd like to see a few more details about the turnout operating specification, but up front I think Bachmann have made a good decision to wait and get the specifications right, rather than rush like Hornby. I have deliberately not added further comment about the Hornby system as it's been well covered in other forums.
Another point if you buy cheap decoders don't expect good DCC performance. It stands to reason that if you buy a good DCC setup your going to compromise performance by buying budget decoders.

BTW I don't regard myself as a DCC expert. I been using DCC since 1994 that makes 12 years of use. I regard myself as a power user, I give good solid practical experience.

QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 5 Dec 2006, 09:29) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>This is not the way most people tackle DCC. You can buy a top unit for well under £400 including a transformer.
Then normally loco's get converted perhaps starting with 10 at a time and then 5 at a time. Very often some of the 100 loco's you mention so are old, junk and not suitable for conversion. (typically old tender drives and some open frame motors). So this expense to probably 50% of what was claimed at around £2000.00 spread over a longer period. I am assuming the decoder installation will be done by the owner. This argument is often brought up on Pat Hammond's Model Railway Express normally by some obscure expert.
There's no nice way to put this:
DCC systems with features cost money, Decoders with the features that you probably want cost money, so if you've made the decision to go DCC don't bleat about the cost
You simply have to accept that the Hobby has moved on and if you want the goodies you have to pay the price.
From what I've seen at Warley and if I was looking for a budget system the Bachmann Dyamis is possibly going to be your best bet. I'd like to see a few more details about the turnout operating specification, but up front I think Bachmann have made a good decision to wait and get the specifications right, rather than rush like Hornby. I have deliberately not added further comment about the Hornby system as it's been well covered in other forums.
Another point if you buy cheap decoders don't expect good DCC performance. It stands to reason that if you buy a good DCC setup your going to compromise performance by buying budget decoders.

BTW I don't regard myself as a DCC expert. I been using DCC since 1994 that makes 12 years of use. I regard myself as a power user, I give good solid practical experience.


Excellent advise & I fully agree !

dbclass50:

My maths was based on use of Lenz Gold all round. One self proclaimed DCC expert in the clubs comment when I said I needed to tweak the running of a 31 - "that's 'cos you've fitted a crap decoder. I told you to use a Lenz Gold". The "crap decoder" in question was a TCS M1 and the real issue was removal of capacitors
Then there was the chap elsewhere who when the Maccoder was new had his signature reading "Go for Gold!" and was recommending everyone to fit the Gold as fleet decoder

A big layout is going to require several handsets (at £100 a time with the LH100) and no doubt the "power users" will recommend computer control . That's another £100 for the interface unit and £200 for Railroad and co.And as a someone said to me on a stand at Warley (with specific reference to a large 4mm DCC layout at the show) then you have to buy a laptop to run it on, so that's another £400

Even on your own figures the cost of DCC is very large - bearing in mind that a couple of Gaugemasters and some switrches will do the job for perhaps £200 (and a lot of time)

When the "DCC premium" is down below £1000, it starts to be a geniune option

Neil:

Hornby have told people at Warley that the Elite will support addresses 1-9999, with 256 locos in the "memory"

As the Elite isn't out yet , none of us can prove what it will do in practice, but that's what Hornby are now saying. We don't know what Dynamis will do in practice, but I bet Barwell have read previous postings on here, picked up "NMRA compliant" as a good line to throw at Hornby, and stuck it on their leaflet

Hornby claim (I think from memory) 18 functions on the Elite . Bachmann are promising 20. The difference in functions is only modest

QUOTE You could pay 75 Euro for a MultiMaus and get a reasonable system

Sorry , I can't. I'd dearly like to walk into a model shop and buy a system of that capability for £50. Roco is not readily available in the UK ( I don't think you could buy one at Warley), the multimaus is not available as a separate system only, it's not advertised anywhere , and if you could source the bits separately from a specialist shop it would cost you £160

Please don't trot out the line "everything in Britain is a rip off so stop complaining and get used to paying through the nose£" . Especially when you and dbclass50 have been arguing on this forum that British loco prices should double to £200 a loco in line with Germany...

The quote was from your own posting earlier in the thread. Dgitrax do not sell a budget system in the UK . The Zephyr start set costs about £150 from the main importer, and hardly anyone else sells Digitrax. This isn't budget. Nor is Flieshmann - apparently their system costs about £300 !!

QUOTE (Doug @ 5 Dec 2006, 09:42) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I ask those people with 'hundreds of locos': Do you run all your locos on your layout?
I know that I don't. The locos that I run are the ones that run well. To those I add a decoder. The bad locos can go up and down a test track that can be hooked up to a DC controller and isolated from the rest of the layout.

I must be lucky then - my fleet is approx 125 including steam, diesel, OHE, DMU, EMU's all DCC with a mix of mainly Lenz & ESU decoders a mix of makes also, Fleischmann, Roco, Piko, Trix, Marklin/Hamo. Not all out at the same time though - there is not enough room !

I did have more, but the few indifferent runners went apart from Lilliput 0-6-0 that my wife thinks is "cute" so it stays in the showcase.

When talking to people about DCC & converting I ask people that very same question. Often, as they don't run them all they use changing to DCC as a good reason to do some housekeeping (& raise some useful funds).

Ultimately surely its down to the size of your layout. The gents speaking of high cost systems have very large layouts by UK standards and possibly big spending power. Bachmann EZ-Command will operate Bachmann sound locos on small layouts and if this is all you want a digital console for then spend £35 and pick up one of these. You could argue that "Tesco" systems are exactly what the UK consumer has been hankering for and that is why DCC has up until now not taken off in the UK. The typical UK consumer is probably not a member of this forum it has to be said.

The so called "Tesco" systems are ideal for the typical UK modeller with a limited budget who does not require all the bells and whistles. The constant talk here of the need to have high spec systems even on a small layout is offputting to the DC user.

It remains to be seen at this time where Dynamis fits in to this picture until there are more details including the most important detail and that is the price.

Happy modelling
Gary

Calm down chaps!
There's truth in what most people are saying and a lot of talk at crossed purposes here.

We now know the Elite is a full 4 digit address system with all 4 programming modes (whatever that means).
The Select is a Toy Train Set controller as well as a basic budget model. Probably not the right choice for a convertee to DCC, more of a first entry to model/toy trains.

Personally I wouln't advise someone with experience or an existing/established layout to go for the sub-£50 budget systems. The sub-£100 systems are more suited to their needs.
Only experience will infom them if they need or should upgrade or replace their system with a top end model later on.
By all means go straight for a top-end system if you wish; that's a matter of personal choice and part of the desion making process that prospective purchasers will have to deal with.

The situation has completely changed from 18 months ago when budget entry level meant a Lenz compact with its limited ability.
At the same price point we now have several systems that can easily out-do or can compete with some systems costing around the £200 mark.
E.g Why a Prodigy or ZTC505 when the PowerCab can do loads more for £94 ?
These new sub-£100 systems will certainly satisfy most peoples requirements, possibly with a couple of add-ons later.

There may be more info on the Elite on the NEW Hornby Website that looks as if it's coming on-line today?

Bachmann look to have stolen a technical lead in the market with th Dynamis, but we'll have to wait until next month to find out the full details.

DCC at the turning point?
Well yes but it's more of a certainty. There is no question of "if the price is right", look at what's on offer or coming soon. Prices are coming down.
Bachmann look to be going all-out for total DCC because thats where the RTR market is going.
Looking around Warley that was self evident with the size of the DCC presence.

Oh yes, you could also buy a MultiMouse train set at Warley too, although the price wasn't competative.

Cheer up everyone, this is all positive news that should help advance the hobby.

QUOTE (Dennis David @ 5 Dec 2006, 12:29) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I see we're still at it.

Well we had stopped. In fact I (& Neil) had already declared that we were going to "leave it alone" until we all had some factual imformation on the Dynamis.

However, this was not good enough for Gary. Out he came like an Exorcet Missile trotting out the same old entry level/full featured system rubbish attacking the "experts" who he again wrongly accuses of saying that all entry level systems are not worth considering. Wrong, wrong, wrong - all the "experts" are saying is that some entry level systems are limited in their ability to be upgraded & that people should be made aware of this, decide how they will use DCC, decide how they may progress & then make their own desision prior to purchase.

Maybe we could all save some time if we just copied & pasted the "Select" debate, changed the word Select for Dynamis & left it there. Same discussion, different name.

Gary's main problem is that his transmit/receive switch is stuck on the transmit position. He just doe not seem to be able to answer any question or point that may just weaken his POV.

BTW - I could sell you a sound 635 CSI Beemer in need of a little TLC for around £800 (has an interesting plate too.)

The same arguments are offered in this thread by long time high end users as elsewhere and that is deemed OK.

The same reply is offered by the "Tesco" new breed budget user barrow boys (known as "Gary") and that is deemed well out of order.

The times they are a changing and whatever lifts your skirt then go for it.

What we are all agreed on is that until we know the price of Dynamis and have more details of its specification we are not able to declare whether it is a sub £50 system, a sub £100 system, a sub £150 system or a system that puts it in a middle range bracket above £150. It is impossible to make comparisons until the price is known.

I am extremely confident that there will be some very attractive digital deals for UK railway modellers in 2007 and this will encourage large numbers of UK modellers to look at digital seriously.

Didn't Alan Sugar and Clive Sinclair and their supporters take similar flak from IBM users in the 1980's when they bought computers out for the masses?

Happy modelling
Gary

QUOTE We now know the Elite is a full 4 digit address system

Sorry it is not a full four digit address system. According to Hornby's specifications, it apparently does program in the 4 modes. This is entirely different to four digit addressing.

I repeat that if you buy cheap and go for so called bargains you will be sorry you didnt buy a full spec system. Budget entry systems are budget for a reason, quite simply they don't offer features. So if you want to take full advantage of DCC it stands to reason to buy the best control unit you can afford. With the best hand set that you like.

If on the other hand you only want a simple system fine. Expect an amps limitation, limit on the addresses that the system can use. If you have sound and other features they may not work, with the next generation of feature packed sound decoders. You will have DCC with many of it's advantages. The reality is manufacturers will not drop prices just because folks in the UK are taxed out of existence, most other countries have much more disposable income.

There is one exception in the budget range that offers a full and complete system on a budget and that is the
Digitrax Zepher. Even this restricts amps to 2.5 .

There's no techno garble in this view point just plain and simple logic.

QUOTE Didn't Alan Sugar and Clive Sinclair and their supporters take similar flak from IBM users in the 1980's when they bought computers out for the masses?

And look at the rubbish they produced, Sinclar spectrum running on a 4 track tape, well if that's your idea of DCC you really are in another sphere. For a few pennies more you can have a real system, and not see the
secondhand & E Bay market flooded in 12 months time by second hand Tesco DIY DCC units.

What I would really like to see is when we start a thread on a specific product to stick to the subject matter of that product.

This is a thread about Dynamis. Simple.

I want to learn about Dynamis in this thread. Not about Digitrax or Lenz.

Why do some always have to start making comparisons and system bashing? Is this an acceptable practice?

I happen to like budget systems because they are right for me. Yet my systems are subject to intense criticism here at Model Rail Forum.

Model Rail Forum has its own comparison table for those who wish to make a comparison.

Are we ever going to have a one product thread and is every DCC forum like this?

We seem to have totally gone off the subject yet again.

I know Doug has said that the DCC section is both for newbies and experts however at the moment its a turn off for me and maybe others like me as when attempting to learn about a console all we get is you should buy this or you should buy that.

Is this a fair request to make going forward?

And is this something the moderators could look at please.

Happy modelling
Gary