DYNAMIS

>Roco is not readily available in the UK ( I don't think you could buy one at Warley),
If you had asked at MacKay's stand, they might have ordered one for you, but I don't think that was the point you were trying to make.

David

This is the proverbial cut and paste from Hornby's Web site where does it say the Elite can handle 4 Digit addresses, in the range 0-9999.

Please go and read the specification for yourself and don't make things up Oakydoke

................................................................................
............................................................................
The Hornby "Elite" Digital Controller is more than capable of answering the needs of most railway layouts - twin control with press dial function, 17 button alpha numeric keyboard, wide function LCD screen, four amp power, as well as having the capabilities of registering 254 locomotive addresses as well as 255 solenoid powered accessory addresses (including point control), plus a USB portal for linking to a Personal Computer.

The Hornby "Elite" unit is an ideal way for the enthusiast to take their train control to a new and advanced level.

The following are just some of the many features and benefits that the Hornby "Elite" Digital Control has to offer:

* Controls up to 10 trains simultaneously, provided the necessary power is available.
* The 4 amp power supply included allows for up to nine locomotives (providing power is available) to be running at any one time.
* The four amp power supply allows for 3 amps to the track with 1 amp to the accessory outlet.
* Incorporates 128 speed steps for smooth control of locomotives.
* Can programme locomotives with up to 99 levels of acceleration / deceleration.
* The "Elite" Unit supports up to nine functions per locomotive if required.
* Able to programme up to 254 locomotives or other items containing a locomotive decoder and 255 points or other items that rely on a solenoid for operation. Eg. Electrically operated signals, electrically operated uncouplers and point motors.
* The "Elite" accommodates decoders that incorporate a functioning feed back system.
* Supports XpressNet protocol.
* A PC interface socket allows for the upload of new firmware and the use of third party applications.
* Uncontrolled 15V DC analogue accessory outlet.
* An LCD screen supports alpha numeric information input.
* External boosters can be supported through the XpressNet port or by direct connection to the booster outputs. A standard RJ12 six-way cable can be used to connect the Select to a booster which has an RJ12 socket).
* Up to 8 "Select" units can be connected to the "Elite" for individual control of 9 locomotives providing power is available.
* The "Select" can be used as a Walkabout Unit when connected to the Hornby "Elite" Digital Unit.
* The "Elite" unit is Railcom® Lenz Syztems enabled. This communication (occupancy detection) method between a locomotive and controller will not function until the necessary software becomes available. This exciting development enables messages to be sent back to a PC via the XpressNet port. Railcom allows communication from the locomotive to the controller. Occupancy detection and the relaying of location information to a controller and from a controller to a PC will require occupancy detection hardware and a change to the specification of XpressNet and Railcom.
* Separate Programming Track Outlet
* The "Elite" is capable of speed profiling locomotives for "double heading".

1. Elite and 4 digit addressing:

QUOTE The chap on the Hornby stand today [at Warley] seemed quite helpful, and when I asked about addressing with the Elite he assured me that it can use 255 addresses. THOSE 255 ADDRESSES CAN BE ANYTHING BETWEEN 0 AND 9999.

The restriction to 255 is how many addresses it can store. (thats twice what a set 100 can manage, and SIXTEEN times what a ZTC511 can handle

Posted on another forum - the poster is owner of a large wellknown DCC exhibition layout (XpressNet system), a committee member of one of the specialist societies and a regular on that forum.

Immediately below from Graham Plowman:

QUOTE Ravenser,

I should correct myself as I miswrote my comment and ended up giving the wrong meaning.

Elite is full 4 digit, 1 to 9999. It has a limit of storing up to 255 loco addresses/configurations in its 'database' which I believe is the same as the Len 100.

Graham Plowman

2. Systems and Dynamis.

We now have 4 systems available/announced which are a lot lot cheaper than £200, support 4 digit addressing, point /accessory control, extensive programming and substantial numbers of functions:

- NEC PowerCab (Available for £95 all up incl power supply from 2 UK suppliers )
- Hornby Elite (not yet available, advertised by many retailers below £100)
- Bachmann Dynamis ( not yet available , Bachmann indicating price very competitive)
- Roco Multimaus (only available as part of a loss-leader HO trainset , from a small number of retailers, price somewhere between about £110-130 for trainset)

SCC's price list shows the Digitrax Zephyr at £145 for a starter set with transformer. This is not a competitive price , and Digitrax's UK availability and profile is pretty low

The Lenz Compact (£130) is only 2 digit, supports limited functions, and general opinion seems to be it's main function is to convince you you need Set100 (The stupid thing is that Lenz look like they've got a pretty attractive mid price system if they'd only sell the multimaus as a stand alone system through normal channels)

This defines the products competing against Dynamis and the likely price point. We have very few details of Dynamis, but we can start to see what it needs to offer and how it might be aimed from the products it will be competiting with.

As a side comment , it's no longer true that you have to pay £200+ to get a system that isn't severely crippled

3. Target market

I am definitely in the target market for these systems .

I'm involved with a protracted club project (uses Lenz Set100) and about to start building a small layout (9' long) which will use DMUs being acquired /built mainly for the club project . I need a system at home for programming , to save me carting stuff up to the club for decoder instalation.I have a Lokmaus2, bought for £30 , which has just blown up 2 decoders while attempting to program them (apparently the Lokmaus programs at full voltage) . A cheap programming system that destroys decoders ain't cheap

I do not want to build a control panel - so easy point control is needed (That rules out Set100 - and I don't much like the LH100 as a handheld)

I'm not prepared to pay more than about £100 for a system . I'm committeed to custom built point work , and therefore also Tortoises, I'll want all of 156, 108, and 101 and I need to replace the computer in the next 6 months. Systems costing £200-350 are out. I don't need sound - speakers and DMUs don't mix. Nor do I need 999 cabs and masses of amps, or computer control

A lot of people in the club have bought powerCabs and even hardened Lenz users are impressed . We have a number of Lenz users in the club , and a couple of Gaugemaster. No-one knows anything about Digitrax, or has seen a Multimaus in the flesh

Unfortunately the PowerCab isn't compatible with the club project. Hence interest in the Elite (or even Multimaus). I need a system by mid Feb (if only for programming) so that rules out Dynamis for me

Neil may be in the target market, but it sounds like he wants a top end system

MMAD and dbclass50 are established power users with existing top end systems from other brands. They definitely aren't Dynamis' (or Hornby's) target market

QUOTE (dwb @ 5 Dec 2006, 18:23) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>>Roco is not readily available in the UK ( I don't think you could buy one at Warley),
If you had asked at MacKay's stand, they might have ordered one for you, but I don't think that was the point you were trying to make.

David

Anyone interested in Roco, please send me a private message.

Hi all

I've just bought a Roco Multimaus for a small project, anyone interested in should look here £67 Multimaus

Multimaus Manual

QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 5 Dec 2006, 18:52) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>This is the proverbial cut and paste from Hornby's Web site where does it say the Elite can handle 4 Digit addresses, in the range 0-9999.

Please go and read the specification for yourself and don't make things up Oakydoke
MMAD, I wasn't intending to be offensive, just pointing out, as reported here there and everywhere, that Hornby have finally addressed the question most widely asked, namely does the Elite use 4 digit addressing. The answer is yes it does, as posted here in this thread.

Ravenser has provided one quote I was going to use to convince you:
"The chap on the Hornby stand today seemed quite helpful, and when I asked about addressing with the Elite he assured me that it can use 255 addresses. THOSE 255 ADDRESSES CAN BE ANYTHING BETWEEN 0 AND 9999.

The restriction to 255 is how many addresses it can store. (thats twice what a set 100 can manage, and SIXTEEN times what a ZTC511 can handle).

Andi (Dell)"

I also heard this from Hornby (it must have been repeated a thousand times during the weekend).

QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 5 Dec 2006, 18:52) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Please go and read the specification for yourself and don't make things up Oakydoke
Really, was that called for?

If you have looked at the Hornby web site (old one now defunct), you will have found their DCC info scattered all over. In FAQ they stated months ago that the Elite was capable of 4 digit addressing, but they failed to mention the address range in the spec. I guess Hornby have brought upon themselves a difficult task in regaining DCC credibility for the Elite?

Some comparative figures.

Max no of locos & functions

Digitrax Zephyr..........10 / 9
Super Emp. Builder.....22 / 9
Super Chief..............120 / 13
ZTC511.....................16 / 9
Hornby Elite.............255 / 13
Lenz Set 100............255 / 13
Bachmann Dynamis ..40? / 20
Roco MultiMouse........10 ? / 20

Of course this doesn't tell half the story.

Very often some of the 100 loco's you mention so are old, junk and not suitable for conversion. (typically old tender drives and some open frame motors).

Click to expand...

This is something I'm finding out as I go through my backlog. The split frames are too much hassle.

Another point if you buy cheap decoders don't expect good DCC performance. It stands to reason that if you buy a good DCC setup your going to compromise performance by buying budget decoders

Click to expand...

Agreed

Even on your own figures the cost of DCC is very large - bearing in mind that a couple of Gaugemasters and some switrches will do the job for perhaps £200 (and a lot of time)

When the "DCC premium" is down below £1000, it starts to be a geniune option

Click to expand...

Well that's what you're going to have to make your decision on. If you want a flash car you have top pay for it. If you want a flash rail system why would you expect to get it for nothing?

We don't know what Dynamis will do in practice, but I bet Barwell have read previous postings on here, picked up "NMRA compliant" as a good line to throw at Hornby, and stuck it on their leaflet

Click to expand...

This may well be the case, and who could miss an opportunity like that.

Hornby claim (I think from memory) 18 functions on the Elite . Bachmann are promising 20. The difference in functions is only modest

Click to expand...

As stated previously Hornby claim 8 functions plus lights for the elite so unless they added 10 yesterday your information is incorrect and the difference is far from modest.

Please don't trot out the line "everything in Britain is a rip off so stop complaining and get used to paying through the nose£" . Especially when you and dbclass50 have been arguing on this forum that British loco prices should double to £200 a loco in line with Germany...

Click to expand...

What we have said repeatedly is you get what you pay for. So please keep the fiction writing for somewhere more appropriate. A 200 quid loco from Germany comes with very high specs including digital sound. You really do have some issue with facts don't you.

The quote was from your own posting earlier in the thread.

Click to expand...

You deliberately misquoted me. "Their" referred to Bachmann and Hornby as was apparent in the comment. Please don't resort to making things up. This seems to be a trend.

Dgitrax do not sell a budget system in the UK . The Zephyr start set costs about £150 from the main importer, and hardly anyone else sells Digitrax. This isn't budget. Nor is Flieshmann - apparently their system costs about £300 !!

Click to expand...

They do starter systems which can be bought from other countries. It is your choice if you want to limit where you buy from.

If you want budget go to a pound shop.

Click to expand...

Isn't that the truth. Why are you even considering DCC if you aren't prepared to pay for it?

However, this was not good enough for Gary. Out he came like an Exorcet Missile trotting out the same old entry level/full featured system rubbish attacking the "experts" who he again wrongly accuses of saying that all entry level systems are not worth considering.

Click to expand...

To be fair to Gary, he didn't start this current spat. Ravenser reignited this by misquoting people and applying his creative fiction writing skills to the subject under debate.

Got my eyes on a Boxster though so it's all academic. Not exactly a family car but we end up using my wife's car anyway for outings.

Click to expand...

Very nice Dennis.

I am extremely confident that there will be some very attractive digital deals for UK railway modellers in 2007 and this will encourage large numbers of UK modellers to look at digital seriously.

Click to expand...

That is true. However you don't want to buy too far down the scale as you may regret it and definitely will want to upgrade and expand your system. This is why;

If on the other hand you only want a simple system fine. Expect an amps limitation, limit on the addresses that the system can use. If you have sound and other features they may not work, with the next generation of feature packed sound decoders

Click to expand...

Roco Multimaus (only available as part of a loss-leader HO trainset , from a small number of retailers, price somewhere between about £110-130 for trainset

Click to expand...

Yet again this is wrong. You can buy these separately from most German model rail shops for far less than this.

This thread seems to have gone off on the same issues as the select ones mainly because of Ravenser misquoting people and making stuff up to try and resurrect the select arguement. The Dynamis does look more promising and it will be interesting to see what it offers. It does look like they will wait till Hornbys committed themselves before they reveal facts as they will have learned a lot from Hornbys mistakes with their systems.
We are all going to buy systems that are appropriate for our needs but just beware, when you buy, what the limitations are of the system you choose. To be honest I don' really give a monkeys what system you buy but like MMaD says don' come back bleating when you find out you paid peanuts and got a s t system. You were warned. ..and we'll laugh at you.

QUOTE (Oakydoke @ 6 Dec 2006, 09:10) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Some comparative figures.

Max no of locos & functions

Digitrax Zephyr 10 / 9
Super Emp. Builder 22 / 9
Super Chief 120 / 13
ZTC511 16 / 9
Hornby Elite 255 / 13
Lenz Set 100 255 / 13
Bachmann Dynamis 40? / 20
Roco MultiMouse 10 ? / 20

Of course this doesn't tell half the story.
The elite only has 8 plus one for the lights according to Hornby. Where do you get the 40 for Bachmann? They only reckon it has 20.

Doug:

I'm afraid we don't run to engine drivers round my way - there's going to be, er, me. At least as far as the home layout is concerned.

For the club project , every extra position means 2 more operators and therefore accomodation costs for the exhibition manager. We're not intending to have masses of operating positions , otherwise shows won't book us

For the home layout, what I want is your third option :

Or call up the point on your Cab hand held and switch the point?

For the club, there will be a full computer glass panel under Railroad and Co , with back up local switches on each board, being made by the sparks . Though while all this is being slowly implemented , the ability to change a few points from the handset without digging through 4 levels of menu might be nice....

I've just found out the Multimaus system won't support consisting , though the Multimaus handset will do as slave for a full Lenz system.

Fine for the club , but a showstopper for the home project wher joining and splitting DMUs is a key part of the intended operational interest.

So that means I'm back to a choice between PowerCab and Elite...

QUOTE f you have looked at the Hornby web site (old one now defunct), you will have found their DCC info scattered all over. In FAQ they stated months ago that the Elite was capable of 4 digit addressing, but they failed to mention the address range in the spec. I guess Hornby have brought upon themselves a difficult task in regaining DCC credibility for the Elite?

Before commenting on the above. As a general statement of intent, I genuinely sorry that Hornby have missed their initial target of launching a product with which consumers can have confidence in. I feel this is a great opportunity lost. Pity, because expectation bred desire, impetus had created a market which now needs to be filled. That market will partially filled by other products. Oakydoke with respect I have no intention in getting into yet another war of speculation on specifications (I like that ) Hornby need to sort out their product and it's compatability problems if they exist, and Bachmann have a flyer with a picture. And hey I have a fully featured DCC system with all the bells and whistles how about that So do I need to worry, not a bit.

Anyone else for On30 or am I alone.

QUOTE Some comparative figures.

Max no of locos & functions

Digitrax Zephyr 10 / 9
Super Emp. Builder 22 / 9
Super Chief 120 / 13
ZTC511 16 / 9
Hornby Elite 255 / 13
Lenz Set 100 255 / 13
Bachmann Dynamis 40? / 20
Roco MultiMouse 10 ? / 20

For completeness:-
ESU Ecos - store details on up to 16,384 locomotives; access 20 functions
Viessmann Commander store details on up to 4,000 locomotives.

Like the ESU and the Viessmann (and Maerklin/Trix), the Dynamis has a large display screen. This suggests that there is a real O/S running underneath (ESU use Linux) which in turn means a file system and that is how ESU can store so much more locomotive data than the list quoted above. So if the Dynamis has a similar structure, it too may be able to store a good sized locomotive database and since there is evidently a "feature war" going on, let's say it's 512 locomotives.

Thinking further about that display screen and having just read the Viessmann catalogue 2007/2008 pages on their Commander at Lokshop.de, it occurs to me that the Dynamis might have some route diagram display software to go with the built in point control. Now that would be something!

David

QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 5 Dec 2006, 22:11) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The Dynamis does look more promising and it will be interesting to see what it offers. It does look like they will wait till Hornbys committed themselves before they reveal facts as they will have learned a lot from Hornbys mistakes with their systems.
A bit late for Bachmann to change things now, I would think?

QUOTE We are all going to buy systems that are appropriate for our needs but just beware, when you buy, what the limitations are of the system you choose. To be honest I don't really give a monkeys what system you buy but like MMaD says don't come back bleating when you find out you paid peanuts and got a s t system. You were warned. ..and we'll laugh at you.
The mistake you are making is assuming all budget systems will be "shit".
Limited , to a greater or less degree, of course that's to be expected; but some are not far behind £200+ systems.
What do we mean by budget systems anyway? Are we referring to price or spec?
The whole game has changed. A year ago the Lenz Compact was considered a decent budget system. Now it's hopelessly outclassed on spec. and price. ZTC introduced the "budget" 505; £200 for a system that looks puny against the NCE PowerCab selling for £94.

I like Ravensers sub £50 budget, £100 ( + or -) mid-priced idea. Everything over £120 will have to justify itself with full capability and a pretty good features list.
The £150 to £200 systems currently on offer are starting to look poor value. The £200+ systems are safe for now, but some of these top systems will need updating if they are to remain competative (eg. Lenz LH100 handset).

Let's not forget that a MultiMouse or PowerCab may be all that someone needs, and if you have a SPROG too, well?
However a Select at £45 is always going to disappoint a lot of those with more than a basic train set.
Possibly the Dynamis will give us a lot more bang for our $$$. Let's hope that's the case.

I agree the Dynamis if it has route control and the potential to control 20 turnouts might just be the budget snake in the grass. Of course 6 months ago the Elite was the new system. I think I might just sit this new dance out !
Has anyone heard of this new control system called DC ? I hear it's going to be the next new thing, just fancy you don't need decoders, just a good old thing called common sence, and two miles of wire, and a ton of plugs and switches.

Money should'nt be your main criterion when choosing any system. Perhaps DCC isn't for you ?. It's surprising how well my new On30 kit goes with straight DC.

Features are the most important thing of any DCC system. I'm on record of having stated this in my first post on this forum. Unlike when I first started in DCC punters are spoilt for choice, the ideal that manufacturers will drop their price rather than specifications is erroneous, "you only get what you pay for". The very fact that this debate has been so intense illustrates the general interest in DCC. If I was starting in DCC I probably too would want to test the waters before committing to a large investment. Given today's choice I probably would be as confused as some who have posted here. If in doubt about what to buy, choose a system which is proven, that way you'll know any lack of performance is your fault not the system you've chosen.