[PeterMC]

Recently received a new Hornby Class 31 TTS. Initial set up with ECos 50210 controller and test proved OK. Then something strange was noted. Loco would only respond when placed on
the track in one particular direction. Turning the Loco in the opposite direction resulted in no response. Returning loco back to track in initial direction and control was
regained. Took loco around a reverse loop and although loco continued after exiting loop there was no speed or direction control. What is going on there?

Resetting the decoder made no difference. I then checked the loco on a small test track with an old Hornby Elite and it worked fine in both facing directions. Other TTS locos appeared to
work fine on the layout when under the control of the ECos, why not this one? Is this an ECos problem or a TTS problem? The track voltage is AC, why would the facing direction of the
loco make any difference?

Subsequently I also noted that the Loco was only recognised on the programming track in one particular direction. I must have been just lucky that the initial set up had been with the
loco set up on the programming track in the right direction, a 50% chance I guess

Please Help

 

[Nigel2001]

Blame the TTS.

Why the blame on the TTS ? Lots of reports on various forums of TTS decoders not working with various control systems. Plus, the TTS decoder appears to be an old, not very well regarded, decoder with a sound module tacked on the side.

- Nigel

 

[PeterMC]

Hi Nigel

Thanks for your reply. It would be a great shame if the Hornby TTS system was floored as you suggest. I have returned a couple of other TTS locos in the recent past that have expired prematurely but these have been replaced like for like and up to now seem OK. It would also be very disappointing if the Class 31 TTS chip was also floored as the sounds as programmed are really quite good. The issue I have experienced with this latest loco is really quite extraordinary and difficult to believe but who knows what is really going on inside these decoders. I have now spoken to the retailer (who also supplied the ECoS) and parcelled the loco up ready to return it and see what they have to say about it. I hope they can find me one that works.

-Peter

 

[PeterMC]

Just tried my new Hornby Merchant Navy (unrebuilt) TTS in the same manner and it appears to have the same problem. Tried all my other older TTS models and they appear OK. Is this a new phenomenon?. Noted when driven onto a heljan turn table and turned 180 degrees the M/N then becomes unresponsive. Any ideas anyone?

Peter

 

[Nigel2001]

My first guess(*) is that the decoder doesn't like the RailCom+ signals from the ECoS. So, you could turn that feature off in the ECoS and see if it works.
But having to turn off features in an expensive command station seems to be a bad way to fix a poor decoder.

QUOTE (PeterMC @ 19 Aug 2017, 06:54) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It would also be very disappointing if the Class 31 TTS chip was also floored as the sounds as programmed are really quite good.

I'd suggest that you try something "really good" in comparison. Try a show where DC Kits (Legoman Biffo) are exhibiting, and ask to hear their sounds with their best speakers (which is probably the EM2 at the moment).

(* I don't have any TTS decoders to try this with).

- Nigel

 

[Richard Johnson]

*** In general I'd second Nigels comments.

I'd simply regard it as an exception or imperfect decoder. It is a clear problem so it'd help the supplier if you video the problem with your phone for them to see and save them some time.

Such evidence is certainly enough to validate the need for a replacement I'd think!

As imperfect as TTS is, it is not typical of how they work as you already know from the others that are just fine with your controller.

kind regards

 

[PeterMC]

Hi Nigel

Thanks for your support. I do not have Railcom enabled on my ECoS so Railcom+ is greyed out. Yes I have heard legoman biffo's work and its great. I have an NMR APT-E with it fitted. However when you consider the price difference TTS is very tempting and yes it may be cheaper but it should still be compatible with ESU equipment surely. Hornby do not advise on their packaging to the contrary

Anyway today I returned the M/N loco to the local dealer I bought it from. A lot of head scratching (He is not really into DCC) and finally suggested he replace the TTS decoder with an ordinary Hornby decoder for me to try on my layout. This he did and when I tried it on my layout this afternoon all was fine. He says he is now able to tell Hornby that it must be the TTS decoder (we know that!) as it works fine with the ECoS with the standard Hornby decoder.

This must be a recent issue with the TTS decoder. I said all my other TTS Locos, P2, Duke of Glousester, 4f, 2p, Gadwall, Class 40, Class 37, Class 47 etc all work fine. I looks like if it is an issue with the chip and as I had the same problem with the new Class 31 its likely not just a one off but the whole batch which could be at fault and I will have to say goodbye to them both. I had preordered the M/N nearly 12 months ago

Lets see what happens.

I will update as I get more info

Peter

 

[PeterMC]

Hi Richard and thanks for your reply.

My concern now is that as I have experienced this problem on two different but newly released TTS locos, both from different retailers, has Hornby changed the spec of their latest TTS decoders. I would be very surprised if they were both individually faulty though I haven't yet heard from anyone else who has experienced this problem. Could I be confident to purchase any further TTs models? My local retailer says he will be speaking to Hornby this coming week so lets see what they have to say. Unfortunately both the models have been packed up and have gone to their respective dealers so I cannot produce a video as you suggest, which on reflection is a great idea and I will remember for future reference.

Also am I going to have a problem with the dealer/manufacture as I have freely admitted it appears to work fine with the Hornby Elite controller, which was retired when I acquired the ECoS?

-Peter

 

[Richard Johnson]

***Hello Peter

Yes a video is often a great way of showing clearly what is up - it is amazing how much more can be seen from a picture or movie as customers often cannot clearly explain some problems... I can certainly tell you that from our own point of view a picture is definitely worth a thousand words when trying to help customers

I understand your very fair concern but I'd think of it as an exception overall. NO problem is likely to be left unfixed by a responsible brand. Anyway - It's liable to be a limited fault, as so far, while perhaps imperfect, TTS has no consistent "running problem" history. The symptoms you are seeing are very specific and clearly not OK..

Whether its one or two and you are just unlucky OR it is a specific sub-batch or series fitted at factory to a specific model will soon be clarified, as you will not be alone in having the issue. It is however unlikely to be other than a bad software load or perhaps out-of-tolerance or even "wrong part accidentally used" when making the decoder at the root of it, given the OK nature of previous deliveries of the decoder.

I do not see why you should have any problem gaining fair customer service. You have a fair claim and it is clearly a problem related to the decoder or decoder + factory DCC-onboard installation as other TTS locos usually work fine with both ECoS, Elite and other brands.

I'd think positively .

 

[PeterMC]

HI Richard and others

Found another loco in my collection with the same problem, a Hornby Virgin 125 TTS which I got around Christmas time so have done as you suggested and created a video.
Its my first foray into this type of thing so please forgive the standard of presentation

You can find it on

-Peter

 

[Richard Johnson]

*** Interesting: I think you explained it well and its a helpful video. Well done.

It is very good that you used a separate test track and not the layout as it eliminates any possible greyness in relation to layout wiring.

-----------------------------------

Finding another problem loco produced some time ago begs the question as to where to look for final blame. It broadens the whole issue somewhat and raises different questions in my mind.

Its the sort of problem that needs good dealer attention to really establish fault as given the video content, if it was me I'd want to test both loco and your ESU system (and with a variety of locos using the same decoder type) - then compare with results using another ESU system at the same time to create a fair "all factors considered" comparison to think about...

I am quite interested to hear or see the conclusion to this issue as time goes by. (but to be fair all round I'd not want to comment further without actual hands-on).

regards

 

[PeterMC]

Hi Richard. Thanks for your support. I am now beginning to pull my hair out with this one and I feel it shouldn't be the case. We pay good money for these things and I feel they should work out of the box.

I have had numerous suggestions from a number of very helpful people on the various forums ranging from resetting the decoder, changing CV's to wiggling the wiring, all to no avail. Unfortunately I haven't heard from anyone who has the same locos and equipment as me to advise if they are experiencing the same problem or not.

I suppose the most puzzling thing to me is that even on the programming track and when the decoder is reset it still only responds in one direction. Someone suggested that that it might be a 28/128 step issue but that also proved a dead end.

I have contacted both Hornby and ESU and await their replies. Two of the questionable locos are now with the retailers / Hornby. I will hang onto the 125 for the moment to see what response I get regarding those before I pack that up and send it off too. I have a feeling the controller may also soon be taking a journey.

I thought the ECoS controller would the answer to everything, especially the programmable track diagram, that really works a treat. I wasn't expecting it to give me headaches. Having said that if I had not bought these three TTS locos I would have been none the wiser. Oh well lets wait and see what is said.

Again Richard, thanks for the support. I will update the forum as and when any progress is made.

-Peter

 

[Greyvoices]

Not being an expert in this field I hesitate to comment but ........................

Could it be something to do with the new Ecos 50210 which is an advance on the 50200. Looking at a discussion on the Ecos forum I see that the only real upgrade has been the power output which has been increased from 90VA to 150VA.

See here for technical specs:

Link to ESU website page for Ecos 50200

Link to ESU website page for Ecos 50210

I am not competent to say if this difference results in a mismatch with Hornby TTS decoders but experience shows that output voltage twixt controller and decoder can be a factor.

Best regards ...................... Greyvoices (alias John)

 

[Richard Johnson]

*** I do not think you should worry long term - no manufacturer wants such things and they will sort it I am sure & no retailer or Mfr. who saw your video could doubt the problem.

The cause will be specific and simple but the diagnosis work to find it in the field is not at all simple.

* QC may or may not find things if they have not thought to test for them. (Experience tells us we must test with every brand to make sure a decoder is indeed robust, no matter how well we make it meet all the standards). Its important to design with imperfect final circumstances in mind as some controllers actually are very far from perfect in waveform and adherence to standards, so a decoder must be very tolerant!

* Could be the decoder hardware - batch to batch, parts tolerances can sum together to create previously unseen issues or even tiny ordering errors (or a new parts supplier with different quality) may induce problems - especially if the decoder is marginal to start with...

* Assembly error is actually unlikely, as machines do most of it.... and its usually good quality consistently especially if the Mfr. adheres to good practice in just in time parts supply and regular replacement of machine-applied flux and solder stock, but bad joints etc. can of course happen occasionally.

* It could conceivably relate to a batch to batch issue if tiny "running changes" happened between production runs - and some aspect of software test, parts or positioning was not perfectly adjusted.

* Both controller and decoder depend on a good software load. A small error (sometimes an adjustment in one area makes problems in others, especially if lower cost/smaller memory chips are used) may not manifest itself except in specific circumstances.

So - its impossible to jump too far in one direction without pragmatic tests.

Anyway - From your video its clear that its NOT something you did and so I can think of no circumstances that should see you not looked after.

------------------------

John - "Never say Never" I guess, but the added power output ability should make zero difference. It is a hardware change only and the ESU voltage limits should all be within the TTS decoders abilities in both cases...

Regards

Richard

 

[Nigel2001]

Final odd-ball suggestion, which came from the same thread on another forum; turn off all the non-DCC stuff in the ECoS and see what happens. The ECoS can control various slightly odd, mostly German, digital protocols. Those might be confusing the TTS chip.

- Nigel

 

[Slipperysam]

Hi,

quick question what firmware is your ECOS running?

Sam

 

[PeterMC]

Hi Nigel

Yes I saw that. The ECoS is supposedly compatible with a number of other digital systems however they were all cancelled the first day I owned it as I did not posses any of the other systems

Hi Sam

I was using 4.1.4 when I first discovered the issue. I then checked on the ESU web site and found a later firmware so uploaded that. It is now at 4.2.0. It made no difference to the issue I was experiencing. The video I made was using 4.2.0

-Peter

 

[PeterMC]

Hi All

Just a quick up date to anyone who is interested

I contacted Southwest Digital who are the UK importers of ESU equipment and it appears they have recently become aware that there is a compatibility issue between the ECoS and
some Hornby TTS decoders. They said that they had made ESU aware of this but were unsure has to if or when an upgraded firmware to resolve this (if its possible) would be issued.
They also advised me that a similar issue has been reported with the Bachmann Dynamis controller which is also an ESU product.

I also contacted Hornby who advised they have also recently become aware that the Class 31 TTS and the new Merchant Navy TTS would not work correctly with some controllers. they
were not aware of any issues with the Virgin 125 TTS. However I am to parcel up the afflicted locos and return the to Hornby for further investigation under warranty.

I also left a message on the ESU support bulletin board but to date have had no response

Lets us see what transpires

-Peter

 

[jet747]

Hi all

I would like to relate my experience with both the Hornby Merchant Navy Clan Line equipped with TTS decoder and the Class 31 TTS decoder itself. I have an ESU Ecos and an older Roco digital system. The issues were identical between both systems.

I have experienced exactly the same problems with locos not responding when orientated a certain way on the track. The Merchant Navy went straight back to Hornby and they have just returned it two months later after re-programming the decoder. It now seems to work fine. I have just tried the Class 31 decoder has the same problem and I expect it will also need to be returned for re-programming.

Hornby told me that it was a software issue.

I have also just cancelled my orders for the Class 37 and 47 decoders. There shouldn't be this much trouble for what is essentially a plug and play item. I suppose it was too much to ask for them to just work at that price.

 

[dwb]

QUOTE back to Hornby and they have just returned it two months later after re-programming the decoder

This ties in with a reference I have seen elsewhere* that some Hornby TTS decoders have had a software update.

David
* Sorry but I can't remember where as I get about a bit on the web.