[rosco01]

Hi folk,
getting frustrated with my ECoS 50201.... I am learning to cope with the perplexing wording of ESU instruction manuals - and very slowly getting my layout to do as I want... but have run into a recent issue which is of great concern to me regarding my ECoS...
Of late, if something shorts out the track - like an errant failure to throw a set of points and the loco wheels bridge two opposing rails....... I cannot get ECoS to restore power using the "Go" button... even with the fault removed.
I have also tried to do this with the track plug into ECoS removed....
The only way I can overcome any tripping of the unit is by a shut down and start up.... when, without doing anything - ECoS springs back to life with the "Go" button illuminated...
I also note that if I manually "Stop" ECoS to do some work on the layout - if it is in this state for more than 20 seconds - I cannot press the "Go" button to restore track power.. and again have to go through another shut down/restart...
I have sent an email to ESU and also posted on the ESU forum site... so far, no response...

I do not, at this point in time - wish to do a full factory reset - and am hoping that someone else has come up against this with a magic bullet resolve....

I am pretty much convinced that ESU will want me first to do a factory restore.... and if the fault continues - for the product to be returned for repair... which will leave me without running the layout for possible months...

Much appreciated,

frats,
Rosco

 

[Nigel2001]

ESU's strategy is sound, but does leave you without a controller. I think you will need to at least try the factory reset - make notes of what you've entered into the device so its quicker to re-establish all the data.

The only other approach I can think of is to avoid situations where the ESU shorts out, and thus avoid the problem. That's either operator behaviour, or it is fit power district cut outs which are faster than the ESU ECoS' shutdown. Now the latter is a problem, because the ESU is very very fast at shutting down. There may be some commercial cut-outs which are fast enough, but I don't know of any. There is a MERG DIY kit build which is fast enough, but that's assemble your own electronics, and import the kit from the UK.

- Nigel

 

[rosco01]

Thanks Nigel,
yes - dreading the factory reset...... and perhaps even worse - for it to be returned under warranty.... from Vic to WA (place of purchase in Oz) and then to US for warranty.... I was hoping someone else with this very popular unit may have suffered similar failure to reset without fault issue.....

Thanks once again, much appreciated

frats,
Rosco

 

[dwb]

I also note that if I manually "Stop" ECoS to do some work on the layout - if it is in this state for more than 20 seconds - I cannot press the "Go" button to restore track power..

If you get this behaviour when the ECoS is connected to a single piece of track I can think of three possibilities
1) Check that there are no stray stands of wire making intermittent contact in the plug from ECoS to track.
2) The short detection circuit is faulty
3) The software has lost the plot and it's a bug which may have been fixed in a later release. You will have to download each later release and unzip it to read the release notes .

In having a quick visit to the ESU Forum seems I have had my mono unit since 2007... Didn't realise it was that long. I'm not using it much at present but I haven't had the problem you're describing either.
David

 

[boxbrownie]

As above I have not had this issue with my 50200, had it a few years now but as expected when (it’s usually this, in fact I cannot remember another reason it’s ever shutdown) a Loco runs through points wrongly set I just have to clear the Loco from the point and press “GO”.

Have you done a software update recently? Just wondering if there was a bug or mis-installation hic’up while doing it?

I have found the help on the ESU official forum often a bit terse as if how dare I find a problem with it, although some of the contributors from the states or GB are much kinder to idiots.

 

[rosco01]

If you get this behaviour when the ECoS is connected to a single piece of track I can think of three possibilities
1) Check that there are no stray stands of wire making intermittent contact in the plug from ECoS to track.
2) The short detection circuit is faulty
3) The software has lost the plot and it's a bug which may have been fixed in a later release. You will have to download each later release and unzip it to read the release notes .

In having a quick visit to the ESU Forum seems I have had my mono unit since 2007... Didn't realise it was that long. I'm not using it much at present but I haven't had the problem you're describing either.
David

Thanks David, I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.
The issue continues with nothing connected to the track plug of ECoS.... hence I believe it is inherrantly within the firmware or componentry of the unit. A factory reset is something I am trying to aviod and will wait until ESU reply to my email to them (if they do).
I have the lastest firmware update installed and don't believe this issue is something which has been raised before - or they should have re-programmed the software to rectify it.
I will keep the forum advised on progress as this is resolved. For a unit which is around 8 months old, and has probably had the power turned on to it less than 100 times... I'm a bit disappointed if, for such an expensive unit - it has a componentry issue....

Again David, much appreciated for your reply.

frats,
Rosco

 

[boxbrownie]

Thanks David, I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.
The issue continues with nothing connected to the track plug of ECoS.... hence I believe it is inherrantly within the firmware or componentry of the unit. A factory reset is something I am trying to aviod and will wait until ESU reply to my email to them (if they do).
I have the lastest firmware update installed and don't believe this issue is something which has been raised before - or they should have re-programmed the software to rectify it.
I will keep the forum advised on progress as this is resolved. For a unit which is around 8 months old, and has probably had the power turned on to it less than 100 times... I'm a bit disappointed if, for such an expensive unit - it has a componentry issue....

Again David, much appreciated for your reply.

frats,
Rosco

The only thing I can suggest is going back to the previous firmware version and then updating again, this might work if it were a “glitch” when the new firmware was installed.

The other alternative is in fact as you say it might be a component failure with in the unit itself, it on,y needs a dry joint or discrete component out of spec.

Good luck.

 

[rosco01]

Thanks David - I'm persevering with it for now - being ultra careful not to short anything or to press "Stop" unless I'm shutting down for the session - and logging out...
If it's hardware, they know about it - and should honour the warranty (2 years)... if it's firmware - it needs fixing and they can tell me how best to go about this.... maybe to "reflash" the firmware, as you suggest.

thanks again for your comments...

Ross

 

[vicrosco]

Ok folk, more to report on this failure to be able to reset ECoS by pressing the "Go" button once either "Stop" has been pressed - or something shorts (running through points etc)... I know a bit more, and hope the below assists others should this problem end up in their application. I did the suggested software update... but it did not reconcile my issues. I believed it was just something I'd have to live with until someone at a higher level was able to chime in on rectification... I have since completed my shelf layout - 8 tracks, along the wall of this 12' room.... I have six Switch Pilot decoders, four of them "Servo" and have 8 servo's connected to each. I also have two solenoid Switch Pilot decoders which control relays to supply power to five KayDee electro magnet uncouplers. The entire layout, decoders included all work fine.... no shorts, no open circuits... but, without doing "anything" at all, other than to shut ECoS down and have dinner... return and fire it up again.... my loco's "shorted" out across the frog of every set of Peco Insulfrog points on the layout.... I suspected the loco I use as my "victim".. but sadly, the next two loco's did the exact same thing... We must bear in mind here - the only frogs which are controlled by ECoS are done through Extension - plugged into the port of just one Switch Pilot Servo decoder... that works fine.. loco's can run through those frogs and will not trip ECoS..... I cannot fathom, for the life of my as to why ECoS trips when loco's go through frogs that it has absolutely no control of power supply to them...... and, with two decoders disconnected - these same loco's run through the frogs without issue.... not the frogs, not the loco's... it simply has to be something in ECoS - as far as I understand it.... I even changed the track/power connections over to the opposing poles, in the belief that there may have been some confliction between the supply to each decoder - they are all wired in convention.. that is, same input of each decoder is the same as all others..... ie black to black with both track and power....and red to red..... so, each decoder receives its "black" from the same track supply...... and red from the opposing one.... I removed the power/track supply plug to the last two decoders... and presto!... loco's run through the frogs again. I'm absolutely dumb-founded as to why..... these decoders do not supply power at all to the track... .they just control r/c servo's.... have no power connection other than through the supply plug.... and - when connected, loco's will run on track, but not through points... Finally, this failure to be able to reset track power through ECoS by pressing the "go" button... a little more is revealed... If only two switch pilot decoders are connected - I can reset ECoS.... more than two - No!... it simply won't allow the "Go" button to be pressed and hold supply.... My suspicion now is that there is something in the programming (of which I am yet to learn or find) that limits the number of Switch Pilot decoders connected.... I don't know where to find this... or even if there is such a programming parameter to be set... but, more than two decoders - and I cannot reset ECoS - other than by re-booting it.. where it never fails to reset.... This DCC stuff is smoke and mirrors to me... I contacted ESU twice now about this not being able to reset ECoS... and have not had one response.... For the information of all forum members.... and hoping someone has come up on this and has remedy for these issues. frats, Rosco

 

[dwb]

When I had a problem with Switch Pilot servos is was obviously a 'load' issue because the ECoS went into continuous resets. As I think I have said before, I fixed this by providing a separate power supply to the Switch Pilot and it's been fine ever since.

David

 

[vicrosco]

When I had a problem with Switch Pilot servos is was obviously a 'load' issue because the ECoS went into continuous resets. As I think I have said before, I fixed this by providing a separate power supply to the Switch Pilot and it's been fine ever since.

David

Thanks David, yes - I'm now pretty much convinced that ECoS is tripping due to overload and not shorts.. for the life of me, I can't see how having a decoder connected can result in a short.... I had a brainstorm last night - hit me like a brick on the back of my head (not that this has ever happened - yet).... overload - maybe, just maybe I need to increase the output supply mA of ECoS.... I'll have a play at incresing the output some time today - if it corrects the issue... I'll report back. If not - maybe I need a separate power supply to all my Switch Pilot decoders as an attempt to correct this annoying non-resetting fault.
Much appreciated for your reply, David.

frats,
Rosco

 

[dwb]

In my case it was all the servos demanding power at once at switch on and cheap servos can be very demanding!

As an aside, on my Continental Shelf layout which is controlled by Roco's Z21, I have a separate power supply for the signal and switch decoders to avoid any similar problems.

David

 

[vicrosco]

I am very hopeful that you have enlightened me with a great revelation, David..... yes, cheap servo's throughout my layout - it must only be a nano-second, but enough for ECoS to trip when all attempt to centre on start up.... will let you know once I increase the mA output of ECoS... if this is successful, I'll follow your lead and incorporate a separate common power supply to all switch pilot servo decoders, as I have done for the supply to switch pilot solenoid decoders which control my 5 Kaydee electro-magnetic uncouplers..... again, thanks for your reply..... very keen to ascertain if this is the root cause of this issue.
frats,
Rosco

 

[vicrosco]

Ok - Eureka!.... found it.
ECoS will now reset using the "go" button - with all six decoders and 26 servo's connected..

I'm very disappointed in ESU documentation...

To list the procedure to find my issue - for the benefit of others...
David was right on the money....

The sequence went like this -

I tagged and removed all 26 servo leads from the four Switch PIlot servo decoders....in the hope that it was the start up draw of the servo's causing the issue... it wasn't - ECoS would not reset with only the decoders connected....

I then removed the power/track supply to all decoders... ECoS reset...
Added one decoder - ECoS reset.
Added a second decoder - ECoS reset.
Added a third decoder - ECoS could not be reset...
I then went about using every combination of just two decoders..... and ECoS reset with every one...
It was any third decoder which was causing ECoS to fail to reset....

I don't know what drove me there... and I was just about to draw and map out adding a third power supply to my layout.. when I found "it"..... in "system" configuration.
I cannot, for the life of me ever remember altering this - but my output in mA was limited to 500 mA...
I increased this to 1,000 mA.... and was then able to connect up every decoder with the result that ECoS reset...

I then re-connected all 26 servo's..... and ECoS reset - I have found "it"..... it was the 500 mA limit in setup output all the time...

For all this time I have been posting about my ECoS not being able to be reset after a short.... with the fault cleared - it was the limited amperage output that was the culprit... and nothing else...

Further, I am disgusted that ESU have not replied to my messages.... and that the manual very loosely suggests to employ a separate power supply for "larger" layouts..... I do not for one moment believe that a layout with only three decoders could possibly be deemed as a "larger" layout....

So folk, in finality - I have found the issue.. and post for the information of all concerned - if you cannot reset ECoS when you add a third (or more) decoder - increase the amperage output of ECoS...

thank you to everyone who has replied to this thread... I am very happy with my ECoS.... but ESU leave a lot to be desired in documentation of it....

frats,
Rosco

 

[dwb]

So glad you have got to the bottom of this problem.
In years gone by I have worked on new hardware and am aware of the potential for inrush current at start up which is why I went straight for a separate supply as my solution.

David

 

[vicrosco]

Thanks David - the issue which I believe many who take this ECoS path was not the servo inrush... but that of the decoders..... ECoS can supply two Switch Pilot decoders during a reset.... any more than that, and the output amperage has to be increased from 500 mA.. which mine was default at....
To be honest, I can't remember setting this lower than factory default - maybe it came higher, but I can't remember going into that page and changing it.... might be worth noting what the ESU factory default for output is....
I have since increased this to 1,000 mA... and everything works just fine.. all loco's went over the entire layout one at a time last night... through ever set of points..... no problems.. all done.

What still confuses the heck out of me is why loco's were shorting out over frogs - tripping ECoS.... when the switch pilot decoders with servo's connected to them did not control power supply to the rails......
Pull out the connector of two decoders... and no shorting...... multimeter did not show up one sniff of a short...
Nothing has changed in relation to wiring or connections.... only ECoS amperage output... and no shorts through frogs... it's beyond me for now...

Thanks for your help - mark this one down for future victims... I know I'll chime in if I see a post put up about ECoS failing to reset with any faults cleared....

frats,
Rosco

 

[Julian2011]

Given the 500mA setting, is it possible that the locos were tripping the Ecos because of the additional load, when crossing the. more complex pattern of rails at the points.

Julian

 

[vicrosco]

Julian, I don't believe so - power connections to each track section, and through the frogs are totally independent of decoder input.
I understand your logic in suggesting that some complex formula in ECoS may have viewed such connection back through the decoder - perhaps this is some hidden smoke and mirrors we lowly modellers are not privvy to... but I cannot understand how such feedback is read by ECoS - when it has no control over power supply to each section.... with the exception of the double cross-over, which I added Extension to so that the frogs of that crossover are powered as needed by the direction of points - none of the others have any way of reporting back to ECoS.... for all intents and purposes, the entire track layout is just one pair of power rails..... junction boxes, separate feeders and sub-feeders cannot possibly be seen by ECoS - the frogs of all other points are Insulfrog, and fed at the common end, insulated at the frog end. The frog end of every set is fed beyond the points by track feeders - if that makes sense?
It's the blades of the points which feed the frogs.... the outer stock rails are not insulated, unless two sets of points are joined toe to toe - then insulated track joiners were used to prevent short circuits as the loco wheels connected one set of points to the other.... it got a bit tricky there for a spell, until I fitted the insulating track joiners to "toe to toe" points for use as crossovers.

The entire system is now up and running - all loco's have now separately traveled over every section, points in all possible movements.... not one issue came up..

It was all to do with the 500 mA setting in ECoS..... as soon as I increased that to 1,000 mA... all issues disappeared back into the mystical world of DCC smoke and mirrors...

thanks for your reply - it is possible, but my head still can't get around how ECoS could have read a loco passing through frogs.... exactly the same thing would have happened when traversing along a straight track, which had sections joined by differing track feeders..... ECoS did not trip on any of the 30 or so of these... no matter how slowly I ran a loco through the differently fed sections from differing track feeders...

I do hope, that my experience can be remembered when this comes up again for a newbie.... it will save an awful lot of angst and frustration - for a long while, months in fact if you look at the start of this thread - it was beyond me finding cure to this oversight... The manual could be written a lot more clearly - stating that in excess of two switch pilot decoders requires "either a separate power supply, or to increase the mA output of ECoS in settings"...

Thanks again, Julian - we have solved this issue - and I thank every one who has contributes to offer suggestions.

frats,
Rosco

 

[dwb]

but my head still can't get around how ECoS could have read a loco passing through frogs

I can imagine a case where the loco going through the dead frog loses its connection to the track which creates an abrupt interruption to the current drawn from the ECoS. When the connection is remade, the ECoS starts supplying current once more. A graph of the current drawn during the few milliseconds of break/make could make interesting reading. It would not surprise me if there was a brief spike or overshoot when the current returns and that might be enough to trigger the ECoS circuitry.

BUT the good news is that you have a solution and it shall remain here as guidance for others

David

 

[vicrosco]

Thanks David,
I fathomed that through as well.... but, the perplexing theory behind it doesn't gel with me.....for, when there is suitable amperage (higher) to effect ability to restore track power - the same loco going through the same frog..... does not trip ECoS....
I understand that with the lower mA value, any such break in continuity may very well eventuate - resulting in an inrush spike ... but, all my loco's have all wheel pick up - and I do not believe there would be any point in time as the loco transits through the frog where there is not continuous supply between each side of the frog through the loco wheelsets.....
As such, any break in transmission/supply would be highly unlikely.

I am certain we are going to come up with this again, in another format/application - where my loco's trip going through the frogs of points.... and, I further suspect - I will be in a very similar degree of frustration when any obvious or logic cause can not be found readily...

DCC is indeed a wonderful system, and ECoS is what I believe to be at the upper eshalon of control centres...

From my recent world of DC.... in the few months I have entered this totally new environ - the magic of the system is shadowed by the necessity to learn how to capture and retain it....

Again, David - thank you so much for your very kind input and understanding - both are very greatly appreciated.

frats,
Rosco