[Lancashire Fusilier]

Trolling through the websites of etched brass manufacturer's of kits and the like and didn't notice many metal wagons. I see that Comet do a comprehensive range of coaches along with others who do sides for Ratio kits and the like however I couldn't find a lot in the way of metal rolling stock kits.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Also interested to know whether who does etched brass chassis for wagons in 4mm. I see there is Bill Bedford, Masokits and Exactoscale. I have heard that Bedfords would be the sensible choice for your 8 ton ex MR wagons and the like from Slaters and so on but wondered if anyone could comment here.

 

[Nick Holliday]

Not sure where you have been looking, as there are several manufacturers on the internet with excellent websites and good mail order service. It has to be said that there is a shortage of etched brass goods wagons - Chivers Finelines had a good range but they have stopped producing this type of kit, having changed to plastic mouldings for their latest products. Falcon Brass have the remains of the Jidenco range which is very varied, but due to ill-health these are currently unavailable and D&S have long been out of production. The only brass goods stock items that I am aware off are in the Roxey Mouldings' range (LCDR & LBSCR), London Road Models (TVR & RR), Southwark Bridge Models (LSWR Ballast mainly), and Bill Bedford has started producing complete kits (I believe). These are all fairly expensive, around two or three times the cost of a similar whitemetal kit. Many of these ranges include horse boxes and other types of NPCS as well.
If you are looking for whitemetal goods wagons check 51L/Wizard Models, David Geen, 5&9 Models and ABS (at keykits.net). Within some of these ranges are the odd etched brass wagon - for some reason brake vans seem to be dealt with this way, perhaps because they are often asymmetric, requiring different patterns for each side. Similarly some of the other etchers such as Caley Coaches have goods brakes in their ranges.
Finally, Lochgorm Models offer basic brass starter kits for LNER and LMS goods vans - you just get the etch itself, and you have to source the other fittings elsewhere (ABS or MJT/Dart Castings) - a cheap way for a beginner to learn the art of soldering.

 

[34C]

There are a good range of kits available from ABS, David Geen, London Road and others. A very useful site with endless links and references to resources is SEMG http://www.semgonline.com/home.html
Go to the modelling pull down, and follow your nose!

 

[Stanier6256]

QUOTE (Nick Holliday @ 4 Nov 2008, 09:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Not sure where you have been looking, as there are several manufacturers on the internet with excellent websites and good mail order service. It has to be said that there is a shortage of etched brass goods wagons - Chivers Finelines had a good range but they have stopped producing this type of kit, having changed to plastic mouldings for their latest products. Falcon Brass have the remains of the Jidenco range which is very varied, but due to ill-health these are currently unavailable and D&S have long been out of production. The only brass goods stock items that I am aware off are in the Roxey Mouldings' range (LCDR & LBSCR), London Road Models (TVR & RR), Southwark Bridge Models (LSWR Ballast mainly), and Bill Bedford has started producing complete kits (I believe). These are all fairly expensive, around two or three times the cost of a similar whitemetal kit. Many of these ranges include horse boxes and other types of NPCS as well.
If you are looking for whitemetal goods wagons check 51L/Wizard Models, David Geen, 5&9 Models and ABS (at keykits.net). Within some of these ranges are the odd etched brass wagon - for some reason brake vans seem to be dealt with this way, perhaps because they are often asymmetric, requiring different patterns for each side. Similarly some of the other etchers such as Caley Coaches have goods brakes in their ranges.
Finally, Lochgorm Models offer basic brass starter kits for LNER and LMS goods vans - you just get the etch itself, and you have to source the other fittings elsewhere (ABS or MJT/Dart Castings) - a cheap way for a beginner to learn the art of soldering.

I actually designed the brass wagon kit (which produces either an LMS or an LNER van) now in the Lochgorm range. Andy Copp took over most of my HR kits a few years back and took this 'beginner's' fret as well. It was designed specifically to give a beginner exercises in all the techniques required to build more expensive full kits before committing himself to a much higher expenditure. It must have been OK - I sold over 400 of them. At the price it was a no-brainer.

However etched wagons are always going to be expensive and harder to build than th cheaper whitemetal and plastic wagons. Since most folk need a lot more wagons than anything else the cost of building them all in brass would be prohibitive. For limited runs of specialist wagons brass has its place of course, and this is why horseboxes, pre-group wagons, and brakevans are probably worthwhile as volume production of these is never going to be required.

The same rule is the case for a lot of coaching stock. Till Hornby launched its new range of RTR LMS and LNER coaches you had very little choice, and your trains looked silly with only Comps and Brake Thirds. Even now you are limited and there are gaps in the ranges - no sleeping cars or dining cars for instance. My LMS coach range still covers 90% of the LMS coaches ever built including the odd balls like kitchen cars and Inspection saloons. These are all still available BTW. I don't have a website, but a pm will get you a list.

Alistair Wright
'5522' Models

 

[Lancashire Fusilier]

QUOTE (Nick Holliday @ 4 Nov 2008, 18:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Not sure where you have been looking, as there are several manufacturers on the internet with excellent websites and good mail order service. It has to be said that there is a shortage of etched brass goods wagons

Just for clarity Nick my first sentence was "Trolling through the websites of etched brass manufacturer's of kits and the like and didn't notice many metal wagons."

I am just making sure I understand your first response correctly. Are you agreeing with my first sentence or offering other suggestions on where I could have looked?

QUOTE (Nick Holliday @ 4 Nov 2008, 18:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>- Chivers Finelines had a good range but they have stopped producing this type of kit, having changed to plastic mouldings for their latest products. Falcon Brass have the remains of the Jidenco range which is very varied, but due to ill-health these are currently unavailable and D&S have long been out of production. The only brass goods stock items that I am aware off are in the Roxey Mouldings' range (LCDR & LBSCR), London Road Models (TVR & RR), Southwark Bridge Models (LSWR Ballast mainly), and Bill Bedford has started producing complete kits (I believe).

All noted with agreement, I should have prefaced my initial post that my interest lies a little more specifically with MR, LMS and the like. My mistake.

QUOTE (Nick Holliday @ 4 Nov 2008, 18:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>These are all fairly expensive, around two or three times the cost of a similar whitemetal kit.

Not an issue. Everything is expensive when you live in Australia!

QUOTE (Nick Holliday @ 4 Nov 2008, 18:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If you are looking for whitemetal goods wagons check 51L/Wizard Models, David Geen, 5&9 Models and ABS (at keykits.net). Within some of these ranges are the odd etched brass wagon - for some reason brake vans seem to be dealt with this way, perhaps because they are often asymmetric, requiring different patterns for each side. Similarly some of the other etchers such as Caley Coaches have goods brakes in their ranges.

Finally, Lochgorm Models offer basic brass starter kits for LNER and LMS goods vans - you just get the etch itself, and you have to source the other fittings elsewhere (ABS or MJT/Dart Castings) - a cheap way for a beginner to learn the art of soldering.

There are 2 whitemetal MR wagons on Wizard/51L - great!
There are 4 whitemetal MR wagons, 2 whitemetal LMS wagons and 3 MR coaches on David Geen's - It doesn't mention anywhere on the site that these are metal, I thought they were plastic! These should be fun projects though.
There are 2 MR wagons and 10 LMS wagons at Keykits - I assume these are all whitemetal?
The beginner's kit from Lochgorm looks to be interesting from the instructions - might get a couple for a play and track down some of the unsupplied bits from others.

Thanks for the suggestions Nick.

 

[Lancashire Fusilier]

QUOTE (34C @ 4 Nov 2008, 18:36) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There are a good range of kits available from ABS, David Geen, London Road and others. A very useful site with endless links and references to resources is SEMG http://www.semgonline.com/home.html
Go to the modelling pull down, and follow your nose!

Thanks for that. As indicated above I should have prefaced my interest in MR and LMS items of which ABS and Geen do have some items I need to procure.

 

[Lancashire Fusilier]

QUOTE (Stanier6256 @ 4 Nov 2008, 19:37) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I actually designed the brass wagon kit (which produces either an LMS or an LNER van) now in the Lochgorm range. Andy Copp took over most of my HR kits a few years back and took this 'beginner's' fret as well. It was designed specifically to give a beginner exercises in all the techniques required to build more expensive full kits before committing himself to a much higher expenditure. It must have been OK - I sold over 400 of them. At the price it was a no-brainer.

However etched wagons are always going to be expensive and harder to build than th cheaper whitemetal and plastic wagons. Since most folk need a lot more wagons than anything else the cost of building them all in brass would be prohibitive. For limited runs of specialist wagons brass has its place of course, and this is why horseboxes, pre-group wagons, and brakevans are probably worthwhile as volume production of these is never going to be required.

The same rule is the case for a lot of coaching stock. Till Hornby launched its new range of RTR LMS and LNER coaches you had very little choice, and your trains looked silly with only Comps and Brake Thirds. Even now you are limited and there are gaps in the ranges - no sleeping cars or dining cars for instance. My LMS coach range still covers 90% of the LMS coaches ever built including the odd balls like kitchen cars and Inspection saloons. These are all still available BTW. I don't have a website, but a pm will get you a list.

Alistair Wright
'5522' Models

Thanks Alistair, I do look forward to making the LMS version of the brass wagon kit mentioned above and will post photos of how it goes together. I have some nifty electronics to add prototypical lighting to this unit which will add some fun to it. I have other LMS brake vans in the more usual plastic kit varuety to but I really enjoy soldering so will make as many metal kits as I can!

PM sent by the way re coaching stock.

 

[pedromorgan]

there used to be allot more whitemetal wagons available. K's did a range as did a few other people. they tend to have gone the way of the dodo.

some of them were a bit crude but would have been ok for "pile it high and sell it cheap" manufacturers. an opportunity missed i feel.

Peter

 

[34C]

QUOTE (pedromorgan @ 5 Nov 2008, 07:33) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>there used to be allot more whitemetal wagons available. K's did a range as did a few other people. they tend to have gone the way of the dodo.

some of them were a bit crude but would have been ok for "pile it high and sell it cheap" manufacturers. an opportunity missed i feel..
Did you ever try and make a K's whitemetal wagon? Horrible: made in a very soft grade of metal, much too heavily cast, and usually distorted to such an extent that vast quantitites of filler were required. Then in use they would distort, because of that soft metal.

The ABS kits, (still available,) were a revelation, crisp clean thin and accurate sections in a hard grade metal, which went together easily and squarely, and are still running what must be 35 years later. If they are still available in same quality, highly recommendable.

 

[pedromorgan]

i cant be certain but i did make a wagon that i believe was K's. i got it second hand in a bag and it had no makers name. it was a box van with a plastic body and a whitemetal chassis. it took a little tidying but it went together ok.
the chassis was a little crude as far as detail was concerned but i thought it was ok for a cheapie.

what i think the industry lacks at the moment are a "rake in a box" sets. they dont have to be great detail but cheap kits sold by the dozen for a reasonable sum that children can afford with their pocket money and people like me wont mind kitbashing. i think they would sell like hot cake. they are only plastic mouldings and could be knocked out for a couple of pence each. sort of a kit version of hornby railroad range.

Peter

 

[34C]

QUOTE (pedromorgan @ 5 Nov 2008, 09:46) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>i cant be certain but i did make a wagon that i believe was K's. i got it second hand in a bag and it had no makers name. it was a box van with a plastic body and a whitemetal chassis. it took a little tidying but it went together ok.
the chassis was a little crude as far as detail was concerned but i thought it was ok for a cheapie.

what i think the industry lacks at the moment are a "rake in a box" sets. they dont have to be great detail but cheap kits sold by the dozen for a reasonable sum that children can afford with their pocket money and people like me wont mind kitbashing. i think they would sell like hot cake. they are only plastic mouldings and could be knocked out for a couple of pence each. sort of a kit version of hornby railroad range.
Peter,

The hybrid kits that K's moved on to were somewhat better, I have at least a couple of those running still, an RCH mineral and LMS shock open.

The product you are after was perhaps best exemplified by the Ian Kirk 'Basic' wagon kits available in the 1970's. Plastic or whitemetal wagon kits in 4mm from manufacturers like ABS, Ratio, Slaters and 3H were about £1.30 - £2.00; and at the time were the only alternative to scratchbuilding if you wanted accurate wagons. The Kirk Basic kits were 30p, but you had to obtain wheels for yourself. Even with the addition of wheels and ABS or similar buffer castings (and other detailing parts if required) they came in at roughly half what the better kits cost.

 

[Nick Holliday]

Getting back to the original topic I should have added South East Finecast to the currently available WM wagons although nothing specifically LMS there either, apart from the LTSR bullion van! I have just found the Genesis range which I think are cast in pewter rather than white metal. They seem to have a huge range but I cannot tell from the website whether they are all BR designs or some earlier - I suspect some of the MOD wagons might be, but there is very little info in their online catalogue.
Don't forget that in LMS days there would be plenty of non-Midland wagons around, so the Wizard and David Geen ranges could add several additional items, and there would also be quite a few non-LMS wagons around, especially LNER ones, as their fleet was very large, and by then some of the more common types were pooled and could theoretically be used anywhere on the mainland.
One of the dodo ranges to look out for is the Model Wagon Company - good quality castings and supplied with etched W irons - I have just picked up their Midland Long Low wagon off ebay at a realistic price - D&S unfortunately are highly prized at the moment - although they only had two Midland items DS451 Brake van and DS452 Ballast brake. Both of these, judging from the list price, were probably a mixture of WM and brass.

 

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Excellent assistance from one and all regarding the sources of the metal kits.

What about the experiences of the underframes and brake gear etc in etched metal? Has anyone had the experience of building a Mosokits, Bedford and an Exactoscale underframe unit? What are the thoughts on these?

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (Lancashire Fusilier @ 6 Nov 2008, 08:55) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Excellent assistance from one and all regarding the sources of the metal kits.

What about the experiences of the underframes and brake gear etc in etched metal? Has anyone had the experience of building a Mosokits, Bedford and an Exactoscale underframe unit? What are the thoughts on these?

***Masokits mens what it says - accurate but a right pain in the ****. Exacto builds well but are also fiddly. Bedford chassis are the pick of them - accurate and go together without wearing a hair shirt.

If you want to try a Bedford product I have their excellent etched coach bogies in stock.

Richard

 

[David bigcheeseplant]

***Masokits mens what it says - accurate but a right pain in the ****.

Not too sure about what you say, I alway use Masokits and find then fine to put together, the fold up underframes are great as you get all the brake gear included, and the instructions top notch.

I have built sixty two wagons over the past two months from the single sided 9 foot to the LNER 8 shoe clasp pictured below and find them a delight to put together.

David



and the finished wagon on my layout Saffron Street that will be at Warley in November

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (David bigcheeseplant @ 6 Nov 2008, 15:57) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>***Masokits mens what it says - accurate but a right pain in the ****.

Not too sure about what you say, I alway use Masokits and find then fine to put together, the fold up underframes are great as you get all the brake gear included, and the instructions top notch.

I have built sixty two wagons over the past two months from the single sided 9 foot to the LNER 8 shoe clasp pictured below and find them a delight to put together.

David

and the finished wagon on my layout Saffron Street that will be at Warley in November

***David, they go together just fine - but there are aspects I dislike in the process. I simply personally prefer the Bedford underframes. Like anything in this hobby approaches vary and each will find their preferences.

Richard

 

[Lancashire Fusilier]

David,

The underside of the LNER 8 shoe looks lovely - I have followed your progress with your wagons elsewhere with envy!

With regards to either the BB or Masokits underframes, I notice on pretty well all of my slaters or Parkside kits that the underside of the floor is usually not flat. Do I take it that this floor has either been totally replaced or the beams cut out before attaching the etched underframe? How do you attach the etched underframe to the floor? Is it glued or screwed?

Also, I had a good look at the BB site and I have confusion as to what I would need to actually purchase to complete the standard round of Slaters MR wagons.

Any help always welcome and I am sure I can't be the only person who is confused - can I?!?!

 

[David bigcheeseplant]

QUOTE (Lancashire Fusilier @ 7 Nov 2008, 03:30) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>David,

The underside of the LNER 8 shoe looks lovely - I have followed your progress with your wagons elsewhere with envy!

With regards to either the BB or Masokits underframes, I notice on pretty well all of my slaters or Parkside kits that the underside of the floor is usually not flat. Do I take it that this floor has either been totally replaced or the beams cut out before attaching the etched underframe? How do you attach the etched underframe to the floor? Is it glued or screwed?

On vans the floor is assembed upside down, on opens then you either need to replace the floor or cut off the ribs, the best way I have found is a razor saw followed by a big file.

I glue the brass subframe to the floor, just with MekPac, as it does mean if you need to make ajustment its quite easy. I have tried BB spung W irons but just prefer the Masokits version, the Masokits subframe uses 9thou wire for the springs rather than the stainless steel springs Mike also sells.

David

 

[billericaybill]

Nice wagons, great track and building behind it David. After building 62 of anything they should go together easily ! I will have to try 62 of something one day and see if i get that good at it.

regards, Andrew

 

[Nick Holliday]

Just for the sake of completeness, I have noticed that Blacksmith (ex Mallard) have a number of goods wagons tucked away within their list of mainly coaches and locos, including the LMS long low, which I assume is the more modern version of the MR wagon the MWC did and 51L do.