Model Railway Forum banner
1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
487 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Has any Forum member encountered a noise emitting from their locomotive when traversing over their layout?
I agree that the "grunting type sound" is more annoying than affecting the actual running of the locomotive - it is however most aggravating when the rest of your locomotives run smoothly and silent.
To check, the offending 614 DMU was placed up side down, and using two electrical wires from the 12v dc variable controller, a wire was placed on each of the opposite powered bogy wheels - the DMU ran in complete silence. However it was noticed that a blue coloured line of sparks were seen - this fault is usually related and caused by the motor brushes requiring to be renewed.
The 614 DMU was again placed on the track and 614 DMU set in motion - "grunting type sound" was again clearly heard.
If anyone has heard this or similar sound from their locomotives, it would be most appreciated, to hear how this fault was fixed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
521 Posts
Without hands and eyes 'on', it's so difficult to diagnose at a distance.
The fact that it runs quietly and smoothly when upside down and no load 'suggests' to me a gear alignment problem rather than a motor problem, though it could be almost anything!

I am not familiar with the innards of this unit - what kind of gear train has it?

While it is running quietly, upside down, it could be helpful to place some load on the motor by gently holding a finger against a wheel to see if the noise returns under load. Also try gently moving the driven bogie(s?), vertically, radially and in a rocking motion. Somewhere among all the experimentation, you MIGHT find that the noise returns, together with an indication of what is creating it.

It could even be that the motor is just a little slack in its chassis mountings, so producing friction and/or bad gear mesh which is dependent on load and maybe on the positioning of the driven bogie.

Another helpful procedure, if it's not too difficult, would be to remove the motor altogether and see how it runs in isolation from the chassis, under no load and then with a small load applied by finger pressure on its shaft.

If you have another unit/loco that just happens to take the same motor, a motor swap could be revealing.

Although you say it appears to actually run OK and the noise is just an irritation, fact is that 'excessive' or untypical noise is indicative of friction/binding/wear/wasted power and will almost certainly lead to running problems later on - but you know this of course, which is why you are persisting with it!


Sorry this all looks a little bit vague on the page, but a good deal of careful experimentation and observation can sometimes take you to the root of a problem.
I'll be very interested to se how you get on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
487 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I have studied a plan for spares, and the motor apparently is similar to the motor fitted in a Fleischmann "Greyhound" manufactured in the late 70's. Both these units are fitted with four wheels to each of the two bogies.
The motor has two 1/2" and two smaller mesh gears and form part of the motor itself and exposed. On the other side of the motor geared shaft assembly, and commutator. The motor is quite small and appears to be sprung loaded to the bogy.
Unlike the "Greyhound unit" the 614 DMU is much harder to access the motor, as the body is not attached to the chassis with two self tapper screws.
How is the coach body detached from the chassis? As you probably know, the 614 DMU is three months old and I am having some difficulty with Fleischmann reluctance to rectify the noise factor.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,650 Posts
If you attempt to do anything yourself you may invalidate the warranty.

What you need is a rolling road and then you will be able to work out exactly where the noise is coming from.

Are any of the bearings short of lubrication?

It sounds like something is not as free running as it should be.

I find a good dose of lubrication normally sorts out a lot of "huffing" noises.

The other cause of something like this is that a component is twisted or out of alignment as suggested by Rail-Rider.

Also check any traction tyres that you may have. They could be slipping and if they are then they could be the root cause of strange sounds.

Happy modelling
Gary
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,918 Posts
QUOTE If you attempt to do anything yourself you may invalidate the warrant

That's your first decision if you do decide to make repairs on your own. This shouldn't stop you from still lodging complaints near and far.

I agree with Gary about the rolling road, I plan to get one myself. Mis-alignment or lose attachment should be easy to fix. Once you have everything in place I have used hot glue to give it a semi-permanent bond. This still may not rid you of the noise but at least it may allow the gears to wear in consistent manner. In the past I have used a mild abrasive like tooth paste to get the gears to mesh properly. This is where the rolling road comes into play. Afterwards you'll need to remove the paste and lubricate properly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
521 Posts
I couldn't agree more about the usefulness of a decent rolling road - a wonderful accessory!
Not yet a very common weapon in the armoury for most people though and a little bit expensive to have to buy for one misbehaved loco. But, if you can afford it, definitely go for it!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
487 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I am most relunctant to make any adjustment, as this certainly will make Fleischmann debate that my adjustments were the main factor to the fault and complaint. However the 614 DMU is well manufactured and well worth the purchase and the fault probably only a one off - without the chance of breaking a part off the body section part, the question is how to detatch the body from the chassis and attain access to the motor? Only by running the 614 DMU stationary, that a noticeable bright arcing in the area of the power pickups or the motor itself. Now arcing in a motor is not a healthy sign, as this can mean that the motor commutator is reaching its end.
The Bachmann Class 158 DMU, had identical noise factor and a cure was reached by easy access to the motor and flywheel area - an application of oil to the fly- wheel was all that was needed, result silent!!!! running of the 158 DMU. The 614 DMU is not fitted with a flywheel or a drive to the four wheels but only two wheels, the other two wheels on the bogy being tyred.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,293 Posts
With the 614 there is a small screw just aft of the power bogie, removal of which will allow the black sub-frame carrying the rear bogie to eased from the body (there are locating lugs behing the center doors, inserting a fine screwdriver here will seperate the two) and the remaining lugs can be treated the same. I agree, however, that great care is needed to avoid damaging the body. You will also need to remove the roof to gain access to the screws attaching the lighting unit to the sub chassis - this can be done by easing it open from the gangway end - again, not a job for the faint-hearted!

The example I have here is the sound fitted version (74438) which runs very well and carries a full complement of station announcements and door closing warnings - fun!

60134
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
487 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
60134 - my thanks for you taking the time to describe the method of seperating the 614 DMU carriage body from the chassis. You say this job not for the faint- hearted, well this applies to me.
I examined the small screw that you described - the matt black painted screw is certainly never had a screw driver applied to it or the paint disturbed. I am most interested, as to how Fleischmann service section managed to lubricate the enclosed driving motor and check the mesh of the gears.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,293 Posts
This might be possible by removing the roof alone.

Not something I have tried (or would be willing to!).

60134
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
487 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I was most fortunate in obtaining from Trains4u correct procedure in accessing the 614 DMU motor for lubrication.

The body and chassis are one moulding.

To access motor:
Use of small screwdriver to carefully separate the roof at the end of the carriage with the corridor connection. You can then separate the roof from the body with your fingers.
Care must be taken when removing the roof, to ensure that light bulbs do not fall from the front of the carriage, as they are held in by a metal tab attached to the roof.
The motor, will then be accessible for lubrication, it will not be necessary to
remove it from the chassis.
When replacing the roof, care must be taken with the metal tabs to ensure they are seated correctly and the roof must be carefully aligned to ensure the body fits snugly within the roof lines.

Noise factor:
Noise factor or being caused by the pancake style motor fitted to the 614 unit will never run silently. The gearing of the pancake motor will always produce some grinding noise and this is inherent in this style of motors.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,293 Posts
As I suspected, tricky chaps, these Germans!

When levering off the roof you need to be very careful about scratching the bodywork. Start either side of the gangway and then work forwards.

60134
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
487 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
To make it easier to study the running features of the 614 DMU, a small white spot was painted to the outside rim of each of the eight bogy wheels.
The 614 DMU running speed was set at low, and at a specific (curve) point on the layout, a careful watch was made on all outside wheels. The rear bogy, pair of wheels (facing to the right) were not rotating, simply sliding on the rail surface. At times the wheels in question were functioning as normal.
I have come to the conclusion, that the metallic rubbing sound heard, is caused by the rear bogy two wheels not rotating.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
487 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
To be honest and ashamed, never thought to check the wheels for gauge correctness. Unfortunately, a wheel gauge is not part of my layouts tools.
The H0 gauge though it fits on my Peco 00 track and runs satisfactory, the actual area of rail grip is much less than the alternative 00 gauge. The 614 DMU wheel flanges are much shallower and therefore easier in this instance to derail.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top