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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Layout activity has commenced, mounted the Fleischmann turntable.

Weathering, kitbasching,scratchbuilding, scenary...I can move mountains, but when it comes to electrical bits I am a hopeless case.

I know Doug and Neil are operating one so would appreciate their feedback.

Basically, in a simplified manner I want to do the below:



For the time being I do not want to operate it with an accessory decoder but from an analog transformer. i.e, The turning and indexing etc will be controlled by Fleischmanns own controller via a analog transformer. (AC) But the rails of the turntable will be DCC.

Layout is all DCC operated. Bus wires is as shown in the diagram. Every 1,5 meters there is a dropper. All five rails to the turntable are fitted with isolated fishplates.

Now question is, the polarity issue. There will be two exits one on the top and one on the bottom but with different polarities.
Will this short the turntable. What happens when the turntable rotates 360 degrees? (Polarity?) or is it insignificant in dcc operation?

Before doing anything wrong need all your advice.

Baykal
 

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QUOTE (ebaykal @ 16 Jul 2008, 16:43) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Layout activity has commenced, mounted the Fleischmann turntable.

Weathering, kitbasching,scratchbuilding, scenary...I can move mountains, but when it comes to electrical bits I am a hopeless case.

I know Doug and Neil are operating one so would appreciate their feedback.

Basically, in a simplified manner I want to do the below:



For the time being I do not want to operate it with an accessory decoder but from an analog transformer. i.e, The turning and indexing etc will be controlled by Fleischmanns own controller via a analog transformer. (AC) But the rails of the turntable will be DCC.

Layout is all DCC operated. Bus wires is as shown in the diagram. Every 1,5 meters there is a dropper. All five rails to the turntable are fitted with isolated fishplates.

Now question is, the polarity issue. There will be two exits one on the top and one on the bottom but with different polarities.
Will this short the turntable. What happens when the turntable rotates 360 degrees? (Polarity?) or is it insignificant in dcc operation?

Before doing anything wrong need all your advice.

Baykal

Hi Baykal.

I use one such turntable. Analogue control as your diag. However, I have placed the turntable and shed in a separate power district. The separate power booster feeds the turntable tracks and acts as an auto-reverser. The feed to the shed tracks comes from the turntable tracks, the tracks are otherwise kept electrically dead. I do not keep the shed tracks live as I believe that it is safer to keep stabled locos and trains on tracks which are electrically dead. Safer in the long run.

The power district in your case could start at the exit from the main line.This is a ZTC550 Power Booster, which is rather over engineering the case. There are other such devices, Lenz LK100, which do that job.

Hope this is of use to you.

By the way, what software do you use to draw the track diagrams, it looks great. I am a complete novice in this area.

Regards,

Hugh Williams
 

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Hi Baykal. Mine set up is wired the same as yours bowever, as Hugh has said, the power to the trunrable itself is a separate power distric. In my case it goes through a reverse loop module. You will need this as otherwise you will get short's. There are many types of reverse loop modules you can use. There is the Lenz one Hugh mentioned. I got a far cheaper one from DCC Concepts which does ths job.

In regard to DCC control of the turntable, the modules currently available only seem to turn the turntable to the next available offramp. This offers no advantage over conventional control so I dropped my plans to control it through the ECoS when I found this out. However, later this year LDT will be releasing a module which should turn the table all the way to a specific numbered offramp, and this will be a far better situation. I am hoping there will be an ECoS update to accomodate this so that it can be controlled through the ECoS.
 

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Hi Baykal
There is a good explanation on Fleischmann's website for do's and don'ts with the turnatable on DCC
unfortunately the text is in German but the diagrams explain pretty well
Fleischmann Tips and Tricks
down load the PDF
I have seen some Fleischmann Turntables run with DCC to the track and some nice sparks can be seen when changing from one exit track to the next ! With DCC the track has full voltage all the time.The turntable's contacts for the exit tracks are acting like switches making each exit "live" when it lines up with the turntable.
With Analog operation this is OK as the Loco on the turntable has no voltage going to it until you line the turntable up to the desired exit and use the controller to mover the loco
With DCC operation (of the turntable track and exits) to avoid this the wiring is more complicated .
all the exits must be wired up through the reverse loup module all tracks must be isolated from the turntable as well
and isolated from the main lines
The PDF gives details
Hope this helps
I've been designing mine to fit in and decided that leaving the Turntable Tracks analog solved two problems
1. I could run my Old (ancient) loco's on a bit of analog track occasionally
2. Loco's stored in that district have no power going to them
Id be interested to see how Neil has his wired up though
Maybe a good topic for a post
Regards Zmil
 

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QUOTE (zmil @ 17 Jul 2008, 14:20) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Id be interested to see how Neil has his wired up though
Maybe a good topic for a post
Regards Zmil
Hi Zmil

I have completely isolated the turntable and wired all the exits to the main bus. The power to the turntable track is on a separate bus and it is this that has the reverse loop module.

Hope that makes sense.

Neil
 

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Thanks for all the tips,

I guess the only solution is a Reverse loop module.

Zmil,

Fleischmanns site seems not to be working.

The three shed tracks in my case will always be powered up. Lots of steamers going up and down; coaling, geting water filled up, slag pits, sanding etc ..will be pretty busy.

QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 17 Jul 2008, 05:38) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Zmil

I have completely isolated the turntable and wired all the exits to the main bus. The power to the turntable track is on a separate bus and it is this that has the reverse loop module.
Hope that makes sense.

Neil

Neil,

Can you please explain the separate bus and how the module fits into it?
My turntable is also isolated and the tracks are all powered by the main bus, just as yours. I couldn't understand the separate bus bit and how the reverse loop works ?

Hugh,

It was done by Microsoft Paint, no software.


Cheers

Baykal
 

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I have mine set up like Neil's system with a reverse module and it works fine. My only niggle is that the turntable has a feature of cutting off power to the bridge if the switch is left in the wrong position - this was designed to isolate the bridge with DC. If you forget to place the switch in the right place, the loco doesn't get any power.

You can get an indexing system to use the turntable with a controller, computer or switch module, but I actually quite like the controller that is supplied.
 

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QUOTE (Doug @ 17 Jul 2008, 19:48) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I have mine set up like Neil's system with a reverse module and it works fine. My only niggle is that the turntable has a feature of cutting off power to the bridge if the switch is left in the wrong position - this was designed to isolate the bridge with DC. If you forget to place the switch in the right place, the loco doesn't get any power.

You can get an indexing system to use the turntable with a controller, computer or switch module, but I actually quite like the controller that is supplied.
I get that problem too Doug.

QUOTE Neil,

Can you please explain the separate bus and how the module fits into it?
My turntable is also isolated and the tracks are all powered by the main bus, just as yours. I couldn't understand the separate bus bit and how the reverse loop works ?

It's a while since I set this up but from memory, there are two wires from the turntable which collect current for the actual turntable part. Where these connect to the main bus, put a reverse loop module between these wires and the main power bus.



This is one way to wire it.
 

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Or you could use a DPDT switch as I have done. It's easy to remember which way it should be as I've set it up so that the switch should always point towards the end of the turntable with the operator's hut. This works whether I'm using DCC or straight DC. This is a manual solution rather than automatic but has not caused me any problems to date - it's been in place for around 16 years or more.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Murphy is lurking around my layout these days.


All wiring for DCC has finished in Bayland and the moment of truth arrived when first testing started with a DCC loco. No problem on the rails all doing well.
Problem is with the turntable section with the reversing loop module (Lenz LK100 ).

The loco upon entry sometimes shorts the Ecos. If speed is increased then it is fine.I specially use a loco with sound so to understand when and where it shuts down. Its always where the isolated fishplates are. Upon leaving the turntable this happens again. You hear a chattering sound from the reverse module.

I use Fleischmanns own control unit and it is powered (AC) from the old analog controller. No problem there, indexing and turning is fine.

Obviously I am missing or doing something wrong in the wiring. Here is how all is wired in a simplified diagram:



Help!

Baykal
 

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Hi Erkut

From what I can see you have wired up correctly , the sensitivity can be adjusted on the LK100

Setting the sensitivity of the LK100:





Apart from the terminals "J" and "K" for the input and output, there is a potentiometer on the side of the unit that is used to adjust the sensitivity of the LK100.The sensitivity of the LK100 has a factory setting that is mid way in
the range. If the setting is too high (the pot turned towards the EIN side of the LK100) then the LK100 will be unable to detect the short and thus will not automatically reverse. If the setting is too low, (the pot turned towards the AUS side of the LK100) the LK100 will tend to chatter, because the locomotive load is triggering the LK100 automatic reversing relays. The adjustment needs to be checked for both low current locomotive and high current trains.

Hope this helps

Regards

Zmil
 

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*** Zmil is correct but the real problem is the design of the Lenz reverse module - in fact any reverse module that uses a relay is slow to act and will be an eventual problem - the relay will fail, and as not all locos or trains use similar currents, chattering is common.

Personally I would use it on a seldom used loop and replace it NOW with a totally electronic one - they are much faster in operation, have no slow acting relay contacts to fail and you will have no need for adjustment and no chattering - and you will pay less than you did for the Lenz, which is to be honest not a very good product really!

I recommend the OG-AR by DCCspecialities - I'm out of stock right now but in UK, John at Bromsgrove or Andy at DCC supplies may have stock

regards

Richard
 

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QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 17 Jan 2009, 15:54) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>*** Zmil is correct but the real problem is the design of the Lenz reverse module - in fact any reverse module that uses a relay is slow to act and will be an eventual problem - the relay will fail, and as not all locos or trains use similar currents, chattering is common.

.......the Lenz, which is to be honest not a very good product really!

I recommend the OG-AR by DCCspecialities ....

regards

Richard

Damn you Lenz ! I have been doing some research on the web after this incident ( which I should've done in the first place
) All the symptoms that I have experienced, so did others. Turns out to be a very unreliable reverse loop module.

True, all Loco's have different current values and every time one has to adjust the sensitivity. Ridiculous !

Richard, the OG-AR you recommend, have found the below article which compares it to a PSX one. I'd like to have your opinion on the comparison.

http://www.dccspecialties.com/products/psx_vs_onguard.htm

Thanks

Baykal
 

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Hi Erkut

Just been doing a bit of light reading on the OG-AR and the PSX-AR



The OG-AR (about US$35) is what you need I think , it will handle 4-5 sound loco's in a district , you will only have one at a time on the Turntable - the rest will be in the sidings- so will be under the main systems control



The PSX series is more for whole power districts or blocks , the PSX-AR is US$25 more than the OG-AR because it has a DCC Solid State Auto Reverser-Circuit Breaker w/integrated (Stall Motor) Stationary Decoder. Automates Reverse Loop Turnouts

Hope this helps

Regards

Zmil
 

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QUOTE (zmil @ 18 Jan 2009, 10:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Well I have taken the Lenz Lk100 off my shopping list


The advantage of this Forum
and not being in a position to start building a layout.

Regards

Zmil

Ditto !! Good info here and bookmarked for future reference !

Would one make/brand of turntable be better than others for DCC operation or would they all be near enough equal .. ?
 

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Hi GL in OZ



The Fleischmann turntable is one of the best (and most expensive) they do have a system to operate it under DCC control , that is to select the exit road.



Description from the Fleischmann site

The modern turntable control switch is designed for use in conjunction with the various turntables in the FLEISCHMANN range as well as the Märklin turntable, article number 7286. An LCD display gives a visual indication of the setting of the turntable bridge, the location of the track exits installed and shows the active track exit, together with additional functions. Symbols of the active functions give it a simple, user-friendly operation. Each track exit can be individually controlled. Because the polarity change is catered for by the switch, when rotating through 360°, the turntable is protected against short circuit. The turntable control switch is suitable for operation wtih 2-rail DC operation, the 3-rail AC operation, and will also operate with all digital systems - DCC, FMZ and Märklin-Digital. No changes or alterations to the turntable are necessary.

But most modellers still operate it with conventional control , and select the road manually

Regards

Zmil
 

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A bit more light reading on

The OG-AR is not adjustable and not suitable for low power rated systems , the three mentioned are Digitrax Zephyr (2.5amps) , Atlas Commander (2.5amp but trips on 3.0 amp) and NCE Powercab (2amp) Not sure what the ECoS power rating is (4Amp? I think) or if it is even that critical at around 4amp.

Regards

Zmil
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Zmil,

Thanks for all the information.
We should've done this brainstorming before I purchased the LK100.

Anyway, I have increased the amp value from 2 to 5 on the modules potentiometer and it seems to work for one loco with sound.Considering nearly all my steamers are with sound and will be stationed in the shed district I think the best solution is the OG-AR or the PSX one.

As to the turntable itself, to me, is the undisputed best turntable in the market. I use it still for turning and indexing with analogue control with its supplied commander and am quite happy with it, tough remember Doug had a problem with it, hope he has sorted it out.

By the way, the Fleischmann and Maerklin turntables are the same and manufactured by the same guys.

Baykal
 
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