[Robert Stokes]

On the recent ebay thread, I mentioned that another member and I had done a mutually beneficial deal for some model railway accessories through this site. (I hope it didn't break any rules.) I suggested the possiblity of a 'for sale/wanted' section for this site but no-one seems to have taken up the idea, for or against. Was it a pointless suggestion?

 

[ozwarrior]

QUOTE (Robert Stokes @ 31 Oct 2007, 20:57) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Was it a pointless suggestion?

No I don't think it was a pointless suggestion. Other forums do but I suppose it depends on the forum owners.
At least it would solve Gary's fee problems with eBay!

 

[7113]

I, (wearing my modellers hat) would have no problem with small deals between members. I think it would need careful policing to ensure it wasn't abused by the unscrupulous.

Regards

 

[Sir Galahad]

It sound's like a good idea. Since some prople have been in modelling for a while and may have an old something that isn't available anymore.

 

[80class]

I am involved with moderating a for sale section on the www.avforums.com. It would require a set of rules to be written and a small team of people to be appointed as "sales moderators". However in practise it works very well on many forums. If it was to be proposed by the mrf leaders I would have no problem assisting them. In fact, my lenz set 100 would be much more comfortable onsale here currently than on ebay!

Rob

 

[Gary]

This came up a few months ago and seemed to fizzle out. Maybe the powers were on holiday at the time and could have missed the discussion or forgotten about it:-

http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index...?showtopic=3138

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[dwb]

QUOTE Maybe ... were on holiday
As it happens I was on holiday at the time and probably didn't pay too much attention to it as we've already got a cat

I would be interested in a way to find "good homes" for surplus kit. eBay just isn't my thing.

David

 

[Doug]

On SlotForum, we run a Swap Shop. An area where members can swap goods, announce sales or even link to the occasional eBay listing as long as it is not commercial.

The problems that arise are with:

• Members who join up specifically to list their items for sale. One gets the impression that they are using the forum for their own benefit whilst giving nothing back.
• Members who list quite a bit of eBay stuff, giving the impression that they are more of a business that anything else.
• Members who sell items, get the money and don't send the items. We are not eBay and we don't have any procedures in moderating any sale. If things go bad, we can't be involved, but this does sometimes cause a problem.

If there is an interest in this, I am happy to set it up. We just have to be aware of the problems and try and avoid them.

 

[neil_s_wood]

It might be worth taking up Rob's offer of moderation as he would have some idea of what to look out for. Also have rules and disclaimers clearly visible. I think you would be safe with the regulars on the forum as we wouldn't want our reputation damaged. As said it is newcomers who are here for business reasons that you would have to be careful of.

 

[Makemineadouble]

I'm against the idea of a for sale/wanted section. This site is excellent the way it is, it has balance (thanks Doug for all your efforts). Members have both the opportunity to hear other idea's and vent their own on the other unfortunate members. Thank God it's just model railways and not politics.

It's all to easy in this hobby to be come model blind, (IE. in isolation to other modellers) to new practices, and new ideals. That's why forums such as this are important.

 

[80class]

For various reasons I can't post online how we run the sales forum on avforms but if anyone would like to know please pm me. Shall we saw its alot more advanced than rmweb were I would not risk selling a wonky point or some used fish plates!

re Dougs points:

The problems that arise are with:
1)Members who join up specifically to list their items for sale. One gets the impression that they are using the forum for their own benefit whilst giving nothing back.
2)Members who list quite a bit of eBay stuff, giving the impression that they are more of a business that anything else.
3)Members who sell items, get the money and don't send the items. We are not eBay and we don't have any procedures in moderating any sale. If things go bad, we can't be involved, but this does sometimes cause a problem.

1) minumin number of genuine posts required before permission is given to sell. Permission can be removed if it is felt that the person is abusing the forum.
2) On AVforums ebay references are banned as items must only be available in one place. All ebay references belong in their own section that most users ignore!
3) This is well policed by logging all details of people who seem to be doing this, banning their ip address from ever getting onto the forum and passing on details to the police and the online government money claim (basically an easy access small claims court). https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp As the forum logs all contact as it must all be on the thread the online small claims court has been a godsend to many as all they have to do is register their claim with them and wait till they recieve their money, its a service everyone should be aware of!

I would just like to add that this is a wonderful forum, maninly thanks to Doug, and I don't see there being too many problem if we do eventually go down the road of having a sales forum. Either way, im sure it won't stop our fun!

Rob

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 31 Oct 2007, 23:07) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'm against the idea of a for sale/wanted section. This site is excellent the way it is, it has balance (thanks Doug for all your efforts). Members have both the opportunity to hear other idea's and vent their own on the other unfortunate members. Thank God it's just model railways and not politics.

It's all to easy in this hobby to be come model blind, (IE. in isolation to other modellers) to new practices, and new ideals. That's why forums such as this are important.

Although, in a way I would like to see a sale/wanted section (I have asked for items for myself personally) after some thought I'm inclined to agree with MMaD.

However, for items that may be genuinely rare/hard to obtain (especially if they have little commercial value) I don't really see a problem all the time we do not see people like T******* who were so blatently here for selling.

If I came across anything in the rare/hard to find category I would consider putting it on here, but would run it past Doug first.

 

[Andy Y]

QUOTE (80class @ 1 Nov 2007, 01:09) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>For various reasons I can't post online how we run the sales forum on avforms but if anyone would like to know please pm me. Shall we saw its alot more advanced than rmweb were I would not risk selling a wonky point or some used fish plates!

Rob,

I'd like to know what it is that you are trying to criticise about RMweb please rather than a generalisation. Our classifieds section is purely a point for members to advertise an item for sale and communicate privately over the transaction. Interestingly we already have a number of rules and restrictions around it that you have mooted as your solution. We do permit linking to eBay listings, a matter of choice.

 

[bike2steam]

As a kit-builder, I'm always getting parts surplus to requirements, and conversely sometimes I'm after things such as unmade/part built kits, and bits. So a Classified list would suit me, as things get easily overlooked in e-bay.
Paul M.

 

[Robert Stokes]

Some interesting replies. 80class has made some of the points I was going to add. To prevent people joining just to sell items there are two more restrictions you could make. One is a minimum length of membership after registration, say three months, before being able to offer anything for sale. Another is not to let anyone advertise more than a certain number of items at any given time - this could even be one at a time. It would put off the aforementioned people but not deter genuine members who had the odd item they no longer wanted.

I agree with not allowing links to ebay. In fact you could restrict it to people listing things they want; this would get around a lot of the difficulties. As I said on the original post in the ebay thread, there would have to be a large notice saying that the site owners could not be responsible in any way for a deal that went sour. It would be just the same as one of us responding to an advert in a model railway magazine or a local newspaper.

Thank you for the reference to the complaints procedure; I hadn't even heard of that.

Cheers, Robert

 

[Gary]

It would be daft permitting eBay links as the link would still be present long after the item is sold and to allow eBay links would enourage all sorts of antics.

Also how would site advertisers feel about sales links to eBay or a sales/wanted section generally?

In terms of member preconditions I don't know what the forum technology can monitor but to police any preconditions manually would be nightmarish.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[80class]

QUOTE (Andy Y @ 1 Nov 2007, 09:21) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Rob,

I'd like to know what it is that you are trying to criticise about RMweb please rather than a generalisation. Our classifieds section is purely a point for members to advertise an item for sale and communicate privately over the transaction. Interestingly we already have a number of rules and restrictions around it that you have mooted as your solution. We do permit linking to eBay listings, a matter of choice.

Hi Andy,

Firstly I apologise for critising RMWEB without any apparent justification. I didn't want to go into the details but by not doing so have probably made the matter worse! Basically, as I see it the RMWEB sales section works as a classified adds section in a paper. For me that it is too open to abuse on the internet. A few simple changes would make it alot safer for traders:

1) Posts cannot be edited by anyone other than the sales moderator(s). This stops a lot of basic fraud dead in its tracks. It has a lot of merit.
2) All communication must take place on thread. Only when a public, final price has been agreed and payment method can personel details be exchanged via PM.
3) All items must have an asking price, even if they are listed as for trade, as often offers are made by people with nothing to trade
4) High moderator presence makes people feel secure.
5) A simple feedback mechanism built into the forum software that allows people to be given a score of how many positive sales have been made.
6) A public list of anyone who has been caught and found to be fraudulent. This should include any details the forum has on them.

It all sounds complicated but in practise it works very well. I recommend anyone interested to have a quik look at www.avforums.com. The system has to handle many more listings then a model site would but it copes well.

I dont think we would need all of hese systems in place, but to be honest once set up none of them are hard to police.

Rob

 

[Andy Y]

Thanks Rob,

It sounds a well thought out approach.

Our system relies more on the public credibility of the advertiser and the trust element has been a strong foundation of it. We exclude anyone from posting in classifieds until certain thresholds are met as I've also had to remove people who have tried to take advantage of this. The forum is actively moderated but there's also a degree of self-moderation with a high likelihood that someone wandering in and posting a long list of items for sale in their postings will be tarred and feathered by those who keep the place tidy. ;-)

The facility is well used with 124 sales or wants in the last month, I've even used it myself recently and had a sought after book on my doormat in under 24 hours from the initial posting.

 

[goedel]

QUOTE (Doug @ 31 Oct 2007, 20:36) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The problems that arise are with:

• Members who join up specifically to list their items for sale. One gets the impression that they are using the forum for their own benefit whilst giving nothing back.
• Members who list quite a bit of eBay stuff, giving the impression that they are more of a business that anything else.
• Members who sell items, get the money and don't send the items. We are not eBay and we don't have any procedures in moderating any sale. If things go bad, we can't be involved, but this does sometimes cause a problem.

If there is an interest in this, I am happy to set it up. We just have to be aware of the problems and try and avoid them.
I think that it would be very successful if members had to have made say 50 posts before being allowed to post an item for sale as a new thread, ban any links to sales on eBay or other online auctions, and put a big 'caveat emptor' at the top of the page! Getting involved in any individual dispute would be a waste of time and unhelpful in an X's word against Y's word case - it must be self regulating, if you don't like it don't use it!

Perhaps all those posting (i.e. potential buyers or sellers) in response to a want/sale should have made say 20 posts. This makes it a service for established forum members, not those who sign up just to buy or sell. As long as the MRF clearly states it will not pay any recompense for things going wrong then there should be no issues. Breaches of the rules could be by active moderation or moderation on demand by those reading the threads.

All threads could then perhaps begin with a keyword WANTED for listing items desired or FOR SALE for items for sale.

As long as it is carefully set up I think a wanted/for sale section could be very useful for established members and at the very worse underused but secure from those who sign up just to scam. Thoughts anyone? Perhaps a poll of those willing to use such a service would be a good idea? I trust it would not be a major headache to set up such a sub-forum?

 

[goedel]

QUOTE (Andy Y @ 1 Nov 2007, 13:58) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Our system relies more on the public credibility of the advertiser and the trust element has been a strong foundation of it. We exclude anyone from posting in classifieds until certain thresholds are met as I've also had to remove people who have tried to take advantage of this. The forum is actively moderated but there's also a degree of self-moderation with a high likelihood that someone wandering in and posting a long list of items for sale in their postings will be tarred and feathered by those who keep the place tidy. ;-)
Hello Andy Y,

This seems a sensible way of doing it to me. Although imposing built in restrictions on who can post may save the moderators from wasting their time removing blatantly not-allowed stuff from new members on the scam etc.