[Fotopic Update] Ally Pally 2007

QUOTE Generally, we find that some of the smaller shows are more cost effective - many of the other smaller traders we talk to tend to agree. Maybe, the days of the big prestige shows are drawing to a close ?

It depends where you're coming from.

From the point of view of the smaller trader, quite possibly. I'm not sure that the circle can be squared as far as small traders costs /revenue for doing big shows. A moderate volume/low cost show may well be a much more cost effective way for the trader to go than a high volume/high cost exercise, especially now there is also the internet to generate on-line orders. Much more enjoyable too perhaps

But I don't think the big shows are doomed without small traders. Attendences at the really big shows and the next tier down seem generally to be rising slowly but steadily. Warley hit a new record gate last December, York's gate is holding up or growing I believe, and I understand Alexandra Palace in 2006 was about 20% up on attendance Warners first London show , and from what I can gather between a third and a half higher than the gate in the dying years of IMREX. Harrogate is down a bit but that seems to be more due to the change of venue . Nottingham allegedly could do with a bigger venue. Shows like Spalding and Railex Aylesbury seem to be doing pretty well in the next bracket down.

And I'm sure this isn't an issue at the specialist shows like Scaleforum, ExpoEM, or DEMU Showcase

None of these shows look like they are going to keel over to me - so long as they don't lose their venue (Chatham being a case in point). In fact I remember a discussion on another forum where quite a lot of people suggested they preferred to pay £5 or £6 to see a larger show rather than spend an hour or two at a small show. I've heard the suggestion from one or two sources that these kind of shows might be feeling the draft a bit , though I've not heard any direct evidence whether this is true

Big shows with few specialist small traders may be a less rich experience but I don't think that means the big shows will fade away or fold

QUOTE (dbclass50 @ 27 Mar 2007, 20:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>For us to do Ally Pally the costs would stack up somewhat like :
Stand space (estimated for 12') £250.00

Next year a 6' stand is going to cost about £300
Normally a company i have connections with would never pay that but we have something special planned.

QUOTE (Ravenser @ 28 Mar 2007, 21:22) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>On the other hand if you slashed 25% from the trade income of the big shows which hire public venues, I suspect most/all of them would stop being financially viable and fold (I don't know the actual financial results for any of the big shows mind you, but I do know DEMU Showcase loses a 4 figure sum)

Food and drink for the traders' stand crew , on these costings , is equivalent to 60% of stand rent.

Ravenser, you are working on the assumption that you would not recoup the costs elsware. it would only take £2 to revoloutionise the way the large shows are funded.

put £2 on the costs of the ticket and instead of telling them the fee to exhibit at the show we could invite them to attend. not only would this solve a problem but it would enable the exhibition managers far more scope to shape the nature of the exhibition. for example DEMU could actually invite manufacturers that are relevent to them instead of having the ones that can afford to come.

I have heard it said that this would take some shows above £10 entrance fee and people wouldnt pay. this is complete nonsence.
cinema £4
Alton towers £30
Madam tussauds £30
Tower of london £15

For a good day out at a 1 off event people would not mind paying £12 or £13. especially if its explained to them that the extra is for the benifit of the hobby.

For the box shifters, find out which ones would like to attend and pull 3 names out of a hat.

Having a london show is a double edged sword. yes the hotel etc costs are higher but far more people are within commuting distance and i think that just about cancells each other out.

QUOTE (Ravenser @ 29 Mar 2007, 20:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>From the point of view of the smaller trader, quite possibly. I'm not sure that the circle can be squared as far as small traders costs /revenue for doing big shows. A moderate volume/low cost show may well be a much more cost effective way for the trader to go than a high volume/high cost exercise, especially now there is also the internet to generate on-line orders. Much more enjoyable too perhaps

But I don't think the big shows are doomed without small traders. Attendences at the really big shows and the next tier down seem generally to be rising slowly but steadily. Warley hit a new record gate last December, York's gate is holding up or growing I believe, and I understand Alexandra Palace in 2006 was about 20% up on attendance Warners first London show , and from what I can gather between a third and a half higher than the gate in the dying years of IMREX. Harrogate is down a bit but that seems to be more due to the change of venue . Nottingham allegedly could do with a bigger venue. Shows like Spalding and Railex Aylesbury seem to be doing pretty well in the next bracket down.

And I'm sure this isn't an issue at the specialist shows like Scaleforum, ExpoEM, or DEMU Showcase

None of these shows look like they are going to keel over to me - so long as they don't lose their venue (Chatham being a case in point). In fact I remember a discussion on another forum where quite a lot of people suggested they preferred to pay £5 or £6 to see a larger show rather than spend an hour or two at a small show. I've heard the suggestion from one or two sources that these kind of shows might be feeling the draft a bit , though I've not heard any direct evidence whether this is true
Big shows with few specialist small traders may be a less rich experience but I don't think that means the big shows will fade away or fold

No the shows should not fade away but the hobby could be seriously damaged. in your posts you only seem to be seeing them as small traders, you dont seem to be recognising the huge contribution that they make to the hobby. indeed i wonder if any of the layouts at the ally pally show would have been possible without them. they are the very bedrock of our hobby. without them, we become like germany that is in the hands of a few cash cow companies.

The REC show at woking that was a very good show has been cancelled due to the venue costs. (over doubled in 6 years)

There was stacks of room at ally pally. especially in the second room. that space would have been a very nice gift for some of these traders and might have got even more people throught the door. people all to often just look at the income from the stand cost but they completly ignore the income that comes from having these traders attend the show.

Peter

QUOTE (pedromorgan @ 30 Mar 2007, 06:13) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Next year a 6' stand is going to cost about £300

I have heard it said that this would take some shows above £10 entrance fee and people wouldnt pay. this is complete nonsence.
cinema £4
Alton towers £30
Madam tussauds £30
Tower of london £15

For a good day out at a 1 off event people would not mind paying £12 or £13. especially if its explained to them that the extra is for the benifit of the hobby.

For the box shifters, find out which ones would like to attend and pull 3 names out of a hat.

Having a london show is a double edged sword. yes the hotel etc costs are higher but far more people are within commuting distance and i think that just about cancells each other out.
No the shows should not fade away but the hobby could be seriously damaged. in your posts you only seem to be seeing them as small traders, you dont seem to be recognising the huge contribution that they make to the hobby. indeed i wonder if any of the layouts at the ally pally show would have been possible without them. they are the very bedrock of our hobby. without them, we become like germany that is in the hands of a few cash cow companies.

The REC show at woking that was a very good show has been cancelled due to the venue costs. (over doubled in 6 years)

There was stacks of room at ally pally. especially in the second room. that space would have been a very nice gift for some of these traders and might have got even more people throught the door. people all to often just look at the income from the stand cost but they completly ignore the income that comes from having these traders attend the show.
Peter

Hmmmm - looks like I should have allowed £500 for stand space ?

I think the "serious or semi-serious modellers" (like most of us here on the forum) would not be too bothered about an extra £2 on the tickets (as a "punter" our costs to get to Ally Pally & feed ourselves for the day would be in the region of £70 for two, so we would not be bothered). However, the "train set people or general public" may think twice about the extra, especially as not all the family may wish to go. Very tricky one for the organisers.

The only way we can make any money (shame on us trying to make money !) at shows is to specialize with some of the stuff other people don't do - in fact we really don't "cross" with anyone else, although we do overlap a little here & there. We have a few regular customers who make a point of attending shows that we attend & have said that it the main reason they attend certain shows !

Some very valid points there Peter - we'll have another go at getting a response from the Ally Pally organisers !

BTW Ravenser - you still hav'nt said what part of the UK you hail from ! (be useful for your comparisons).

The content of any exhibition is dependent on those who organise and manage the event and take the risk of staging the show.

As exhibition manager of Railex http://www.rdmrc.nildram.co.uk/railex2007.html the figures to stage a good show are quite staggering. Railex had a turnover last year of over £20 000 just for one weekend! The figures need to balance between all expenditure before the event and income from visitors and trade on the day.

Obviously a show will only break even or make a profit if a certain number of paying visitors come through the door, and attract both good layouts and traders that visitors wish to see. Many of the smaller traders will only attend if you attract the dedicated modeller who is likely to buy from them rather than the family who are looking for a day out watching trains rather than buy some after market component or detail parts.

At Railex I have made a conscious decision to make a show aimed at the modeller and support the smaller manufactures having a six-foot table and producing a small yet interesting range of products, rather than masses of box of second hand traders normally found at other shows.

We have also invested in bringing around 20+ layouts that are either big or impressive or just layouts that people really would like to see and come from other parts of the county and visitors may not have seen before. Alternatively we could have spent much less on layout expenses and accommodation and filled our available space with twice as many small local layouts in which the standard was not as good. Personally I feel that the former is better than the latter, and our exit survey last year seemed to reflect this.

David

We charge a by the linear foot of a stand rather than the square foot at some shows. If a corner space is required then we charge for the depth of one end less 2-foot. We also provide an access point at one end of each trade stand; I believe that Nottingham charge for side access! Also Warley and Ally Pally charge power if this is supplied, we don't.

We also charge for tables if these need to be supplied, as we need to hire these in from an outside source, although we charge the cost we pay currently at £5 per table.

I won't devolve our trade prices here although those are at a level that is on par or indeed lower than similar sized shows, We need to balance costs but do not believe in pricing a smaller trader out and have kept of stand fee static for three years.

Trade space is fully booked for this year and we always and give the excising traders first chance to book for the following year with a cut off date, after this date if any space is still available then a trader on a waiting list is invited.

We also try not to have too many traders selling the same range of products, I refused Midland Counties Publications on the basis we already had support from Kevin Robertson books and Wild Swan Publications. Although if you are a small manufacturer and you would like to be considered for a future show then email me at [email protected] and I will add you to the waiting list.

David

As my comments seem to have touched a raw nerve -I wasn't in any way trying to be negative about specialist traders, or to dismiss their contribution. At the risk of a visitation from Neil S Woods , I don't want things to end up like in Germany . I model a prototype not a brand

dbclass50 seemed to be saying that specialist traders found the smaller shows work better for them , and suggesting that without the specialist traders the larger shows might not have a future.

All I was saying is that I think they will survive, even if the trade side is not the quality we would all like. I don't think the numbers can be made to stack up in a way that will make big shows in big cities attractive to specialist traders, and if the choice is between a London show with limited specialist trade or no major show south of Coventry , then I'll choose the impoverished show over nothing at all

This doesn't mean the specialist trade has no future. I'm not sure they need to be at the 5-6 really big shows anymore. 3mm has a very healthy specialist trader base - they go to small specialist events like the 3mm AGM held in small out-of town locations, they deal by mail order. You won't find 3SMR or Finney and Smith at big shows. The internet offers huge opportunities to the small trader - he can sell on line without leaving home. Fox Transfers had already decided that they had a viable business without attending exhibitions.

What I'm saying is that the old "business model" whereby a trader made most of his earnings from going out on the circuit with a stand at lots of shows is breaking down. Bromsgrove Models , with no shop, no exhibition stand and trading over the internet , looks to me like the sort of specialist trade we will see in future (And I do put my money where my mouth is - I bought a PowerCab and decoders from Bromsgrove Models rather than trying to buy something over the internet from Germany or the US, precisely to support the "trade" in Britain. )

I'm shocked to hear we've lost Woking show - I'm actively inolved with DOGA and I know DOGA have had a stand at Woking for many years. From what I've heard (its off my own patch) Woking had a very good mix of traders. But in support of my previous comments , I'd point out this has nothing to do with layouts or their expenses or a lack of specialist trade- its property prices and the cost of the venue that has led to this. No show can cope with a doubling in venue costs. The organisers of Derby show have said on MREMag that they are under pressure from venue costs as well

A major increase in prices would be a risk. The gate would certainly decline and there are already grumbles about the cost of certain big shows (I know of folk who won't attend Ally Pally because of the ticket price). The grumbles may be unjustified , when you compare other events prices (or the fact that most of the cost of attending larger shows is travel). Unfortunately organisers have to reckon with unjustified complasints as well as justified ones

DEMU Showcase does actually have the specialist trade attend. But a one day event (now 2 ) in a modest venue in a middle sized Midland town carries much lower venue costs than a big Inner London show can do . Which show will Express Models in Loughborough attend - Burton , where they can drive home and sleep in their own bed , or London?. (And yes they've got an on-line store)

QUOTE What did you mean that you didn't want things to end up like Germany? You don't want a bigger choice of models and modelling supplies? I'm not sure I understand what you mean?

I was responding to pedro:

QUOTE the hobby could be seriously damaged. in your posts you only seem to be seeing them [specialist suppliers] as small traders, you dont seem to be recognising the huge contribution that they make to the hobby. indeed i wonder if any of the layouts at the ally pally show would have been possible without them. they are the very bedrock of our hobby. without them, we become like germany that is in the hands of a few cash cow companies.

I do not want the specialist trade, the kit makers , the detail people, wiped out, and nothing left but RTR . That would be a diminution of choice and options . Companies like London Road Models do kits for things no RTR manufacturer will ever touch. I will never be able to buy an Alford and Sutton tram loco or an ex WD road van brake from a RTR manufacturer - Smallbrook Studios were selling both at Ally Pally (and I've got the road van kit to build)

There is such a thing as a "Maerklinist" and you do find people in Germany who when asked what they model say "Flieschmann" or "Arnold" . I don't model Hornby - I model the Eastern Region. I bought a Bachmann 170 in Central livery because I fancied a Central 170, and a Hornby 156 in Central because I wanted a Central 156. My shunting plank locos are from Silver Fox , Nucast and Knightwing, and most of the wagons are Parkside kits or heavily reworked RTR.

I've got a Bachmann 20 and a Hornby 31 and kits in the cupboard from DC Kits for 114 Derby Heavyweight and 105 Cravens DMUs because those are the things you need to model Lincolnshire in the 70s and 80s - brand loyalty doesn't come into it. (And I'm currently staring at a Woodhead Electric mouse mat bought from the same source at Ally Pally) Where the club project is concerned life would be very much harder without DC Kits and Bratchill Models for the multiple units, though Bachmann Turbostars, Voyagers and 158s are almost equally important

On a happier note its good to here the Humbrol range is back - we're going to need a lot of Humbrol 81 for the stone buildings on the club project, and I did do a little panic buying when the news broke. Seeing Humbrol's factory in Hull standing empty when visting relatives over Christmas was a melancholy sight

QUOTE without them, we become like germany that is in the hands of a few cash cow companies.
There actually are quite a lot of small German kit and models manufacturers they are just not commonly known outside Germany. They are dwarfed by the giants like Maerklin.

I also look at an English Language German rail forum and have found out about all sorts of German cottage industry kit and part makers who are completely unknown. There is also such a thing as a Hornbyist, we have a couple here on this forum.