[wallace25]

Hello all, this is my first post on here so I hope its in the right place!

I am slowly (when funds allow) trying to build up track and stock to make a layout in the future and have a quick question that you might be able to help me with...

I note that there are a number of differing GWR coaches available from different manufacturers and I wanted to know how and when each type was used? Were they simply from different time periods or perhaps different trains (eg express and branchline)?

some of the ones I've spotted so far are: white/cream roof (hornby), dark brown roof (bachmann) and clerestory (hornby).

Any info on how these coaches should be used would be greatly appreciated
Thanks in advance,
Jon

 

[dwb]

Sorry to butt in, but could I extend the request to ask if there are any "reference books" on coaching stock in general for ideas on what designs ran when, where and in what livery?

David

 

[Gary]

Have a look at this website. All GWR livery questions will be answered:-

http://www.gwr.org.uk/index.html

Southern Railway modellers visit here:-

http://www.semg.org.uk/model/faqsrco.html

BR coach liveries are complex due to regions and period crossovers. Not too sure about books or websites on this. Watching a DVD tonight featuring trains running out of Kings Cross in the 1960's coach livery combinations could be a mix of blue/red/green and more! It seemed that BR slapped any coaches in any colours together in the mid 1960's. Those running neat and tidy all red or all blue or all green coach liveries think again. This was not prototypical!

Also watched DVD foootage with sound of Midland Blue Pullmans and Deltics at high speed.

I bet money that even the almighty neat and tidy GWR ran coaches with different livery combinations at times!

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[dwb]

Interesting. I was wondering about the ex-LMS region. I was hoping that Hornby might release their Stanier coaches in carmine & cream but since there is nothing on that front I am wondering if that livery was applied to the old LMS in the fifties.

David

 

[Gary]

The issue is BR Carmine and Cream had a relatively short life and might not be a big seller if Hornby did that particular livery. Marketablity always seems to be a concern for Hornby and of course their stockists who do not want coaches left on their shelves unsold. It also covers a period of the late 1940s's/early 1950's percieved as not popular with railway modellers as too many weird liveries and "BRITISH RAILWAYS" rather than a logo on the loco bodies and tenders. Crimson and cream soon replaced it.

1947/1948/1949 is actually a fantastic period to model as you can get away with virtually anything including mixing up tenders on locos and it should definitely not be overlooked by any modeller who wants to do LNER/LMS/SR/GWR/BR all on one layout and minus any BR standard stuff!

Oddly enough weird liveries seem now back in fashion witness the recent Bachmann collector club blue tank loco rapid sell out. And anything with experimental liveries seems to attract the eye of the collector these days. And of course you have Heljan doing Falcon and that "weird" and totally unpopular (Hornby and Bachmann claim) Clayton diesel.

And the strange thing is carmine and cream Triang Hornby coaches seem to fetch reasonable money on eBay so somebody must want them. I guess dwb is snapping them all up as they appear!

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[dwb]

Confession time: I didn't know there was a difference between Carmine & Cream and Crimson & Cream. So it looks like I really do need a book! Thanks for information.

David

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE (dwb @ 4 Jan 2007, 10:03) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Confession time: I didn't know there was a difference between Carmine & Cream and Crimson & Cream. So it looks like I really do need a book! Thanks for information.

David
Neither did I

Is it a different shade of red?

 

[Gary]

A quote from the Southern E-group website. Carmine is a deeper red than crimson and Wikipedia reveals the colour difference. Crimson is considered to be the colour of blood hence "blood and custard" and is a ceremonial colour used within the clergy. Hornby currently offer coaches in both liveries covering different periods but not the Staniers. Maroon is a different shade again and is a dark red with a brownish tinge.

Carmine is also called Crimson Lake (used by LMS) however Crimson Lake (used by LMS) is not the same as Crimson (used by BR). Yes it is confusing!

QUOTE Come nationalisation in 1948 the Southern Region of British Railways, as all other regions, slowly adopted the new mainline coaching livery of carmine and cream, lined yellow and black with yellow lettering and numerals. This livery weathered badly, so it was later replaced by a stronger crimson and cream, lined and lettered similarly. Suburban coaches were just the carmine or crimson, some lined some unlined. Where this suburban livery applied on the Southern Region lining was not used. Southern EMUs remained green throughout this period. From 1956 until the blue/grey era of the mid 1960s regional liveries were permitted, with the Southern Region being quick off the mark to revert to their beloved green, albeit a new darker richer shade (BR Southern Region green). Lettering and numerals remained yellow. Certainly new BR Mk1s were introduced in carmine/cream, and pictorial evidence proves both Maunsell and Bulleid coaching stock was repainted into the new British Railways colours. However, the carmine/cream and crimson/cream schemes were not as widespread throughout the Southern Region as other regions, because of the Southern's long held practice of re-varnishing as opposed to repainting coaches. (It is from this practice that the North American railroad slang of "varnish", referring to passenger cars, comes.) By this method the Southern region was able to hang on to its green coaching stock longer, and many coaches were not repainted, but merely re-varnished and re-lettered, until the Southern Region green livery was introduced in 1956.

Is everybody now clear on this?

Why not keep it simple and stick with modelling GWR/Western Region which had one shade of very tasty Chocolate Brown!

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Nick Holliday]

Gary
Surely the Western Region wasn't quite that simple. As I recall they went through the gamut of BR liveries - blood and custard, lined maroon, crimson etc and only returned to chocolate and cream in the late fifties, and then, theoretically, only for front line express trains. So even more varieties than either the Midland or Eastern Regions!
Regards
Nick

 

[7113]

QUOTE (Gary @ 4 Jan 2007, 09:10) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Why not keep it simple and stick with modelling GWR/Western Region which had one shade of very tasty Chocolate Brown!

No - stick to the Southern Region, after regional colours were allowed everything was painted green. In addition I believe I'm right in saying they were the only region to use regional liveried Mark 2s.

Regards

John

 

[Gary]

Hmm...

...Hornby have a BR Western Region carmine and cream livery in the 2006 catalogue for early 1950's period.

I am disturbed to discover though that Hornby have not fully distinguished properly between carmine and crimson and crimson lake/maroon in the 2006 Hornby catalogue. All entirely different colours!

Well that have but in a very random jumbled haphazard sort of way with sets of coaches being designated different colour names for the what is effectly the same period.

How do they shape up in 2007 on this as I have not looked too closely at the new Hornby coach range.

Bachmann in 2006 go for crimson only and offer it on mid to late 1950's Eastern and Midland Region Mk1 Coaches and Western Region Colletts.

In fact looking through my back catalogues for Bachmann they have only ever offered rightly or wrongly the colour "Crimson"!

Oh no! I am suddenly displaying rivet counting tendancies!

Happy modelling
Gary

PS Looking at back catalogues I have from the 1950's and early 1960's it was all much simpler then.

"Only produce the current livery in use" was the order of the day and forget GWR/LNER/LMS/SR!

The odd historic Caledonian Railways and Stephensons Rocket Coaches being exceptions to this general rule.

 

[wallace25]

Gary,
Thanks for the great link

it looks like it will be very helpful

Jon

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE Is everybody now clear on this? I think I must be going colour blind.

Maybe we could have a colour chart like they do with the paint to show the difference.

 

[dwb]

I had a look on Wikipedia this evening to see what I might turn up in connection with coaches etc. There's more information than I expected to find including this link to the LMS Carriage Association. The site has an "Interests/Books" section which has a long list of books with particular reference to the LMS - I should have remembered David Jenkinson was bound to have written one or two - and British railways (that's a small 'r' deliberately) in general.

This in turn led to this website of the LNER Carriage Association.

So along with Gary's earlier post for GWR and SR, there is a starting point for information for each of the big 4. For BR, try searching for "British Railways Mark 1" in wikipedia

David