[Gary]

QUOTE Think class 05 or 06 steam engines - 3 class05s made, 2 class 06s. Only one S2/6 in reality, yet a model is made. Even Hornby-RivaLima´s class V300 is obscure at best. Now, why are these models made? My answer is, because they are impressive to look at, feature interesting technical details, or are just plain beautiful

Are there any British prototypes that have been totally overlooked that have a criteria of being impressive to look at, feature interesting technical detail, or are just plain beautiful?

My own view is that Hornby or Bachmann or somebody should develope a ready to run British narrow gauge 009 range. The manufacturers say there is no market for such a range. I say introduce the range and the market would snap the products up! Little engines offer all three!

And a prototype OO Deltic simply would be a best seller as it definitely is impressive to look at, features interesting technical detail, and is just plain beautiful. It is totally amazing that manufacturers believe that such a model would not sell in large numbers. Surely such a model is the diesel equivalent of Flying Scotsman or Mallard in terms of longevity of sales?

Forget the prototypical modeller who by the very nature of how they model has a very limited scope for making purchases outside their very narrow interest. The train set modeller who is not so bothered by what they run as long as it looks nice would snap such a model up!

Image from Wikipedia. For all Star Trek fans out there according to Wikipedia there were plans to name the prototype Deltic Enterprise!

How many annual visitors per year does The Science Museum in London get, and from all over the world! All keen buyers of prototypical Deltic models and train sets!

Think of the promotion!

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[nnich]

QUOTE (Gary @ 23 Aug 2007, 15:31) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Are there any British prototypes that have been totally overlooked that have a criteria of being impressive to look at, feature interesting technical detail, or are just plain beautiful?

Hi Gary

if we're looking for impressive to look at my vote goes for the G16 4-8-0T of the LSWR and SR. a 95 ton tank locomotive that must have turned more than a few heads when it first took to the rails in LSWR days

There is also it's close relative the H16 4-6-2T, but I think the G16 wins

Not pretty by any means, but it has presence by the ton!

If you want pretty, then we have to ask nicely for that T9

Norm

 

[alastairq]

I suggest Highland Railway #103, the 'Jones Goods'.

Glasgow Museum of transport have the one surviving example in preservation...it used to be'a runner'....

Pro's:-

Choice of various Highland Railway liveries.....plus LMS liveries.

Simple lines, no complications.

Historically, Britain's FIRST 4-6-0 tender locomotive.

I suspect it would make an ideal collectors item.....especially in HR livery, which could be as complicated, or as simple as one wanted.

 

[alastairq]

sorry, here it is..

just look at the detail.....what about that cab roof?

the chimney ?

these were very successful engines....are available in kit form in a number o gauges, including the Polly 'darned huge' gauge.

 

[Doug]

Beautiful...? I sometimes think ugly is beautiful.

This is in South Africa (1900), but it was probably British and shipped out there.

What about other colonial exports (we don't have to go into Garratts in this topic).

 

[34C]

Eye candy:

P2 2-8-2. The UK's only eight coupled class built for express passenger work. Give the A4 some competition...

The Stirling 8 foot single. Beautiful, introduced the leading bogie to UK railway practise, preserved example. A de-featured version can be sold in the Thomas the Tank series.

The Ivatt large atlantic. Beautiful, introduced the wide firebox to UK railway pactise, preserved example. With some clever tooling the Brighton atlantics could be covered as well.

4-4-0's. Where to begin? LNWR Precedent, Caley Dunalastair, Midland compound, NER R, GER Claud, GCR Director, NBR Glen.

Very useful:

Personally I would prefer a raft of 0-6-0's (tender and tank) and eight coupled freighters before any of these, and especially the historically significant ROD.

 

[dwb]

QUOTE a prototype OO Deltic simply would be a best seller as it definitely is impressive to look at, features interesting technical detail, and is just plain beautiful. It is totally amazing that manufacturers believe that such a model would not sell in large numbers. Surely such a model is the diesel equivalent of Flying Scotsman or Mallard in terms of longevity of sales?

Apart from the "seen it at the museum, bought the engine" crowd, a large number of modellers can legitimately run it on their layouts. Anyone running a mid to late 50s layout based on the LMR or ER / NER can run one. A few snippets from "The Deltics - A Symposium" published by Ian Allen 1972 ISBN 0 7110 0799 3:

The prototype rolled out of the English Electric works in October 1955. It ran on the LMR Euston - Liverpool service in late 1955, early 1956. It ran 5000 test miles between Carlisle and Skipton in August / September 1956. For the remainder of the year it worked the "Merseyside Express" and the return "Shamrock" working from London to Liverpool. From January to May 1957 it worked London - Carlisle before returning to London - Liverpool with a London - Crewe trip added to test a higher work load.

The Eastern Region got their hands on the prototype Deltic in 1959 where it ran as far as Newcastle. There is a photograph in the book showing the prototype passing Doncaster in April 1960 and a final one showing it on route to the Science Museum in April 1963.

If someone came up with a model of the right length, height and width on reasonably accurate running gear, I'd buy one and if it had sound, so much the better

I've uploaded a still photo I took with my video camera about 5 years ago to my museum gallery. Use this link to have a look.

David

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE (Doug @ 24 Aug 2007, 07:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Beautiful...? I sometimes think ugly is beautiful.

This is in South Africa (1900), but it was probably British and shipped out there.

What about other colonial exports (we don't have to go into Garratts in this topic).
The only reason that looks that bad is because of the armour. The photo seems to be from the Boer war. It probably looks ok underneath.

My list would cover all all types of Garratt's but as Doug doesn't want Garratts in this topic I won't go there.

Other than that I'd like to see;

LNER Green A4's
BR Blue A4's
LMS Blue Coronation Scot (yes, I know Hornby did one a few years ago but it is not available now).

Anything Caledonian Railway (not including poor train set quality stuff)
How about this class 903

Anything Highland Railway

QUOTE I suggest Highland Railway #103, the 'Jones Goods'.

Glasgow Museum of transport have the one surviving example in preservation...it used to be'a runner'....

I saw this earlier in the year when I was home and it is a very fine loco. As said you could get LMS models from it too. What about it Simon?

These last two are an area sadly lacking in anything other than kit form. This is a real shame as they had excellent liveries and very nice coaches too. These really would be an excellent option for finescale models.

 

[andrew]

I'd happily sign up for the HR Big Goods, though there are a couple of kits already available in 4mm scale (DJH and Falcon Brass). It's a legitimate fifties and sixties prototype, as it ran from its restoration in 1958 until its return to a museum in 1965. It was even down in England on occasion and can be seen working as a pseudo French engine in the film, "Those Magnificent Men and Their Flying Machines". The Caledonian single, No 123, was back in service at the same time, and would be a lovely model. The prototype Deltic is a good one - I have good memories of watching it on the GN main line. I wonder how good the venerable Airfix/Dapol Deltic kit looks these days? I haven't seen one for a long time, but our detail expectations have evolved a bit since it was first produced.

 

[Richard Johnson]

A good question Gary:

Lots ...But please - no more southern or Eastern locos for a while. Think NORTH and North West of London
"There is no railway of modelling merit where the primary "up" line points North!"

Jones Goods or a caedonian loco or two would be fine... but I prefer the following.

by far the best choice for any Midland modeller:
**An 0-6-0 Kirtley - Outside frames - a locely loco with heaps of appeal and widely used all over the LMS
after grouping

Plus

**A Stanier Mogul - a nice compact tender loco with a good look, that'd be nice on mid to small layouts.
**A usable model of a 3F or 2F tender loco
**A usable model of a 4F with a more correct tender and loco drive
**A 2P - Ditto- (The airfix/dapo/hornby is just "OK" and could be much better)
**A Midland Compound with correct dimensions, or even better a 999 class (A prettier proportioned loco with no outside cylinders, very similar to a 4P/Compound
**A 4-6-0 Claughton

Most of the above are perfect for smaller UK layouts too - there are already enough large loco's which never look other than silly on curves less than 3 feet radius!

And in coaches, believeable models of period 1 and 2 Scottish / Midland / LNWR coaches, plus a couple more diagrammes of the pre-ww2 Staniers so a proper train can be created without cutting up the current few very nice Hornby Staniers! (They are basically excellent including bogies - adding brass sides to them is still a reasonable cost option compared to a full coach kit)

Richard

 

[Gary]

The fact is a lot of northern and Scottish locomotives from the early 1900's look pretty, are impressive, and carry nice detail. Yet for some reason this location and period appears to be a complete no no for the manufacturers. Is it the fact that there is no rolling stock to go with such models if produced and so we are back to a Blue Pullman type scenario in that it is not just a question of developing a motorised unit? If it is then it is a shame.

When chatting with SK he claims that Hornby (and Bachmann presumably) have only scratched the surface of what is available to model in steam outline. This may be true however what chance Hornby and Bachmann offering 5 brand new steam outline prototypes each over the next 10 years giving us 50 additional steam locomotives by 2018 to add to the 40 or so that thay currently offer?

To excite model railway fans all Hornby and Bachmann have to do is both declare that for the next 10 years they will each have a policy of developing 5 new steam loco models each year!

And this would be over and beyond any upgraded models either within the existing range such as the Hall Class or historically a former model such as the Schools class.

It should be noted Hornby Scalextric are capable of producing 8 to 10 new subjects each year so it is surely within the boundaries of possibility that Hornby (and Bachmann) are capable of doing the same.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Richard Johnson]

Hi Gary

Quote:
Is it the fact that there is no rolling stock to go with such models if produced and so we are back to a Blue Pullman type scenario in that it is not just a question of developing a motorised unit? If it is then it is a shame.

** they may think that way - but its not really the case, although its possibly the perception: (BUT: While they are well enough made, H in particular should really fix their older van & open wagon range anyway - theres no an accurate body / chassis combination among them... just like Dapol - any manky old chassis under any old body seems to be the rule)

I have some excellent photo's of rail yards around Inverness between the wars, and there are more GWR wagons there than LMS, few Southern ones too...and most of the rest are PO wagons or nondescript vans...almost no "North of the border" wagons evident at all... Scotlands coal and manufacturing industry plus the huge Naval / shipbuilding Presence in the North kept a huge proportion of all regions stock flowing across the border regularly! (and lets not forget that excellent "water of life" from the Northern Distilleries)

Quote:
When chatting with SK he claims that Hornby (and Bachmann presumably) have only scratched the surface of what is available to model in steam outline.

**Thats true: All the more common and many of the "overlap" into BR are there, and I guess most classes in active presentation as they are obvious candidates for easier sales, but there are many less well known types that could be modelled with ease, as they are well documented. Even better, if they well photographed but aren't in preservation the bloody minded among the modelling fraternity can't grab a tape measure and make a fuss over the odd inch either!

I'd LOVE to get some accurate 3F/4F's, 2Ps, 4Ps/compounds & Kirtleys from either of the brands!!

Renumbering is dead easy, so given the qty of those types on the rails, thats at least 24 loco's sold to me alone!! Kirtley and compounds first though - both are handsome loco's!!

Most importantly, if the 4 and 6 driver small locos are looked at, minor detail was relatively standard on most MR loco's for example and there's a lot of common ground in the smaller locos, so it might be possible to save a little by commonising a proportion of the parts.

I build many of my own locos, but I'd love to NOT have to build so many... How fantastic it'd be if they chose several prototypes with differing tenders - I'd love to be able to just buy current quality loco's with differing tenders so I could mix and match - example, a fleet of "current quality" 4F's with a johnson / Deeley/Fowler tenders behind them!

Maybe H could actually do OK by overproducing the tenders anyway, so we could for example drag a fowler or Stanier tender behind our 8F / Jubilee / Patriot / Scot / etc etc simply by investing a few added dollars. I for one would happily pay at least as much as for a high quality coach for a properly scaled top quality tender!!

Quote:
To excite model railway fans all Hornby and Bachmann have to do is both declare that for the next 10 years they will each have a policy of developing 5 new steam loco models each year!

** I'd happily settle for 3 plus a couple of "not too hard" variants on existing top quality models.

I have something like 60 kits in the draw to make, and I love making locos, but I'd really be happy if I could buy many of them and put more time into rolling stock, making track and creating buildings and scenery!!

Richard

 

[Gary]

We all know there is absolutely no future in developing new D&E models (Deltic prototype excepted) as there simply are no more viable subjects so it is very clear that we have to enter a new Golden Age of steam models.

If we don't then put simply Hornby and Bachmann will release no new prototypes during the next 10 years!

And how likely is this?

So clearly new thinking and maybe some risk taking is required by Hornby and Bachmann (and others?).

We may even get a Clan!

This new thinking will upset kit companies as no doubt many of their products will be under consideration.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[John Webb]

There's quite a bit in the Prototype forum about the Deltic prototype and modifying the Dapol kit to give a working model - see BR Class 55 Deltic.

Regards,
John Webb

 

[darobi]

Will there come a time in the near future when Steam engines will be a think of the past in Model making? As the next generations come along won't the D&E scene be for them as the Steam era is for most now

Times move on and surely eventually the Golden Age of Steam will have grown ever smaller to the future modelers. Will the 50's and 60's early Diesel's become the Big 4 pacifics and atlantics?

How long will the Steam modeler be around for or are they going to carry on and on.

What are the young today going to be modeling in 20-30 years time.

I think this is something that both Hornby and Bachmann need to cast a weary eye over so as not to fall foul of a sudden decline in one and a rise in the other.

I wouldn't want to force my young ones into modeling something they don't want to (if at all) if they prefer the modern D&E scene over "Grandad used to play with Steam engines"!!.

As an aside why don't Bachmann do train packs

Darren

 

[34C]

QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 24 Aug 2007, 11:19) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Most importantly, if the 4 and 6 driver small locos are looked at, minor detail was relatively standard on most MR loco's for example and there's a lot of common ground in the smaller locos, so it might be possible to save a little by commonising a proportion of the parts.
Careful design is the key. Bachmann for example have the standard Derby 0-6-0 wheelbase in their range under the Jinty. But have they designed it so that it will fit inside mouldings of the loco bodies representing any of the many Derby 8' + 8'6" 0-6-0 chassis products? The other major works similarly 'locked on' to wheelbase dimensions, and retained them to the end of production of the 0-6-0 type. This should be very attractive to the RTR manufacturers if looking to produce variants economically by reusing existing tooling..

 

[Richard Johnson]

Hi Darren
You said: Will there come a time in the near future when Steam engines will be a think of the past in Model making? As the next generations come along won't the D&E scene be for them as the Steam era is for most now

Times move on and surely eventually the Golden Age of Steam will have grown ever smaller to the future modelers. Will the 50's and 60's early Diesel's become the Big 4 pacifics and atlantics?

How long will the Steam modeler be around for or are they going to carry on and on.

My thoughts: I don't think its as simple as that:

I have almost no memory of the end of steam and in fact the last Steam Loco I saw in revenue Service was actually a NZ railways Ja Class... Somewhere in the later 60's I think. My real memories of Trains started with trips from Ormskirk to Liverpool on electric stock, and I have NO real memories of any value at all of Black 5's, Scots and Coronations etc etc etc.. (except the indelible memory of my first train set, which was a Hornby Dublo with Duchess of Montrose in BR Green plus Blood and Custard coaches)

However while I'd logically be a BR modeller to many, In fact I love the history of the railways and prefer to model the period of appx 1930 to 39 when they were in their ascendency and doing exciting things.... To do that I really need to ground myself in the politics, economy, attitudes and society of a time well past, so my background is you could say 100% learned rather than my taking a trip down memory lane with the modelling of Steam. I did exactly the same when I modelled US prototype for a while, trying hard to find the "roots" of the prototype I wanted to model)

Others do it differently, preferring to model either things they've experienced or the current scene they can see and research in real time.... Then theres the rather more broad brush approach, from those who just model what they like, mixing prototypes and time periods on a whim:

And lets not forget the permanent "hearking back to gentler times" that affects every generation at some time or another... Add to that the fact that the generation who remember steam well aren't really so old in todays terms, that historical research, museums and preserved railways keep steam to the fore and I can see 50 years of nostalgia and memories being stirred well enough to keep steam modelling well and truly healthy.

All are equally valid and the broad coverage keeps the hobby healthy, as I think that overall such a broad mix is needed to get adequate sales "mass" for survival and mix is much better for the trade too - and above all, we need B&H and the hobby shop to stay interested, or Diseasel and Steam modellers will both lose out equally.

So...

I actually agree with Gary that its time for a broader approach to steam, in that it will take away nothing from the D&E modeller but will extend the boundaries of the hobby for all. We can guarantee that H & B will take on any new exciting prototype as its released into the real world (Such as the new olympic stuff) but there will always be a need for the more historical models:

I sincerely hope so anyway.. after all, they are the very things that created the infrastructure that todays stock riolls on, and the thing that, through preserved railways, do more to bring new modellers to the hobby than anything else I think!

Now - about that Kirtly that is WAY more important than another incarnation for a Deltic

Richard

PS: BTW, committed Steam era modeller or not, I also have a quite nicely balanced stud of earlier diseasels for days when I'd like to watch a whistler & Mark 1's take a run over Ribblehead... and I've created a rather tasty wee brass model of the LMS Jackshaft drive shunter that eventually led to the creation of the '08

 

[alastairq]

QUOTE by far the best choice for any Midland modeller:
**An 0-6-0 Kirtley - Outside frames - a locely loco with heaps of appeal and widely used all over the LMS
after grouping

Now as a young teenager, I regularly used to cycle into the centre of Birmingham to visit a model shop, which was an'upstairs ' store of sorts..cannot remember its name...it wasn't far from New Street station.

On the shelf was a [K's??] kit, made up and beautifully painted in maroon, of a Kirtley 0-6-0.

I would spend hours (or it seemed like it) drooling over this model.

I spent a lot of pocketmoney buying what was then very early N gauge german stuff, an 0-6-0 tank, and a few wagons and coaches..I still have a bodyshell of one luggage van. I'm pretty sure it was Minitrix...this was around 1964 or so.

anyways, a Kirtley loco with its elegant outside frame motion would be lovely.

The Highland Railway had some very elegant 4-4-0's....Dukes, Skye Bogies, etc.....

Perhaps there is a market based upon 'cute factor?'

 

[alastairq]

QUOTE Will there come a time in the near future when Steam engines will be a think of the past in Model making? As the next generations come along won't the D&E scene be for them as the Steam era is for most now

Times move on and surely eventually the Golden Age of Steam will have grown ever smaller to the future modelers. Will the 50's and 60's early Diesel's become the Big 4 pacifics and atlantics?

How long will the Steam modeler be around for or are they going to carry on and on.

I no longer feel the popularity of steam outline has much to do with ''what modellers remembered from the past''....few of us recall steam travel to any accuracy.

certainly not really anyone in their 40's or under.

Yet, thanks in no small part to the current preservation scene, and its easy access........I think more folk these days have steam experience than of old.

OK, so not in its original working environment.....I view the bus preservation scene with a jaundiced eye, having started as a driver with London Transport in 1972, on RT's......but that really doesn't matter, does it?

My young (8) son certainly knows more steam train travel than modern diesel/electric........in fact, up until a couple of years ago, ALL his rail travel was behind steam...and his first question when boarding a 156 DMU was, why no engine?

Employees at NRM York will rightly tell anyone, the most knowledgeable folk there, on old-style railway practice, would be the youngsters of 6,7, or 8......having been throroughly indoctrinated by the Rev.W Awdry, and Thomas the Tank.

I do feel, as more and more effort is put into returning steam power to the rails of this country, so will the enthusiasm for steam continue.

Old diesels?

Whilst modelling US outline years back, I was amazed how much regard vintage diesel power was held.

US modellers held EMD and EMC FT units and ealry E units, not forgetting the other makers like FM, BAldwin, etc with the same esteem as we UK modellers hold BR Standard types!

I agree older diesels have as much a place in the order of things as steam, or electric.

I have no preferences whatsoever, holding all with equal delight. (My first Kitmaster loco was the Swiss Krokodil)

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Gary @ 24 Aug 2007, 09:42) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It should be noted Hornby Scalextric are capable of producing 8 to 10 new subjects each year so it is surely within the boundaries of possibility that Hornby (and Bachmann) are capable of doing the same.

Apart from the fact that there is a huge difference between the tooling costs of a slotcar & a railway locomotive (even a small one) in model form !

& how many ppl would be able to afford to buy them all ? - to a certain extent the manufactures would gain some sales & loose others,