[harkins77]

Hi guys I was wondering if someone could help me with how to wire my dc layout so that it can run with my dcc locos

Here is a plan of where I have my current dc power feeds.

I am using N gauge Kato unitrack just in case anyone asks.

Please take a look at the diagram below and please ignore the top 2 lines as they are both going to be dc shuttle runs back and forth.

The rest I want to be able to control with my dcc controller and where I will have my dcc locos.

I'm sorry about the crude picture but I used the basic paint program to give you the idea.

picture of my current wiring plan

 

[neil_s_wood]

I'd recommend that you have a look at this site before finally deciding on your wiring. Brian Lambert DCC Pages

You will need to wire more than the points you have shown if you want good continuous power supply. I have wired every piece of track to ensure this continuity.

The shuttle lines require more complex wiring which is currently being discussed on another thread.

 

[harkins77]

The shuttle lines require more complex wiring which is currently being discussed on another thread.
[/quote]

Yeah I know about the shuttle lines I already have the board and wiring ready to go onto the layout from lad I got the board from he has a working example in the shop and that is why I wanted to do the shuttle run thing with some of my locos.

Thanks for the information relating to the wiring for the rest I'll take a look at today.

 

[harkins77]

QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 5 Oct 2007, 01:07) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'd recommend that you have a look at this site before finally deciding on your wiring. Brian Lambert DCC Pages
You will need to wire more than the points you have shown if you want good continuous power supply. I have wired every piece of track to ensure this continuity.

The shuttle lines require more complex wiring which is currently being discussed on another thread.

Neil you say to power every bit of track but from looking at the web page which is very helpful I am confused as to where to place the insulated rail joiners and also it states when wiring the loop for it not to touch the wood frame. I'm sorry if this sounds thick but I hate wiring and it gets me all confused.

Would you take a look at my diagram and show me where to place the power feeds and joiners as I don't want to have to rip up the track I already have more than once as some of it is already ballasted but if I have to I only want to do it once if you get what I mean.

 

[Brian]

QUOTE (harkins77 @ 6 Oct 2007, 18:07) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Neil you say to power every bit of track but from looking at the web page which is very helpful I am confused as to where to place the insulated rail joiners and also it states when wiring the loop for it not to touch the wood frame. I'm sorry if this sounds thick but I hate wiring and it gets me all confused.
Hi Harkins77
I think you have miss read the web page text? There isnt (or at least there shouldnt be) any mention of loops touching a wooden frame anywhere as far as I know? and I wrote it!

As for insulated joiners we really need to know if the track you're using has insulated or live frogs on the points?? As live frog points require more insulated joiners.
Generally the easiest place to fit insulated joiners is immediately after the end of the point onto the rails that lead away from the point or frog where the next track section abuts or in other words on the Vee rails etc.
Good luck

 

[harkins77]

QUOTE (Brian @ 6 Oct 2007, 18:56) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Harkins77
I think you have miss read the web page text? There isnt (or at least there shouldnt be) any mention of loops touching a wooden frame anywhere as far as I know? and I wrote it!

As for insulated joiners we really need to know if the track you're using has insulated or live frogs on the points?? As live frog points require more insulated joiners.
Generally the easiest place to fit insulated joiners is immediately after the end of the point onto the rails that lead away from the point or frog where the next track section abuts or in other words on the Vee rails etc.
Good luck

sorry about the misunderstanding brian I think I said it hope no hard feelings.

with regards to the points I'm sure the kato turnouts are live frog

 

[Brian]

QUOTE (harkins77 @ 6 Oct 2007, 19:01) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>sorry about the misunderstanding brian I think I said it hope no hard feelings.

with regards to the points I'm sure the kato turnouts are live frog
Hi
Not a problem at all

If youre using live frog points then I would recommend fitting insulated joiners after every frog (Onto both Vee rails) and where any loops are then onto all four rails after the points.
Ensure all feeds can only allow current to flow from the tips to the frog direction on all points, prevent any back feeds by using insulated joiners.
I can re draw youre plan for you showing all insulated rail breaks and new feeds etc for DCC operation assuming all points are live frogs, but not until tomorrow (Sunday) if thats ok and of course Neil dosnt mind?

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE (Brian @ 7 Oct 2007, 04:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi
Not a problem at all

If youre using live frog points then I would recommend fitting insulated joiners after every frog (Onto both Vee rails) and where any loops are then onto all four rails after the points.
Ensure all feeds can only allow current to flow from the tips to the frog direction on all points, prevent any back feeds by using insulated joiners.
I can re draw youre plan for you showing all insulated rail breaks and new feeds etc for DCC operation assuming all points are live frogs, but not until tomorrow (Sunday) if thats ok and of course Neil dosnt mind?
Sorry to take a while to get back to you but I see Brian has helpfully assisted. I followed his diagram and advice so he will be far better placed to explain this than me. Thanks Brian.

 

[Brian]

Hi harkins77
Here is your plan redrawn showing both rails and showing all the DCC feeds and insulated joints etc. Some may say this is a little OTT perhaps, but I work on the principle that if you over insulate the track you will end up with improved running and far less problems.
Hope this helps?
You can add more feeds around the main line loop wherever you feel there's a need to improve current flow etc but I havent shown any as it may confuse the drawing?
Note I haven't included the top shuttle lines, but if you want to control them under the same DCC as the main layout then add feeds to both track BEFORE the two points on both lines and install a pair of insulated joiners to both crossover rails on the points.
Good luck

 

[Robert Stokes]

Brian, why do you need insulated joiners on both rails where there is a loop?

 

[Brian]

Hi Robert
Technically you don't..... But as I said I like to over protect and have used both rails being insulated as a 'belt & braces' approach.
On the Main loop the double rail break (bottom left) serves to prevent any back feeding and keeps the layout rails separate rather than as a ring.
Going into the fan of sidings they just provide extra protect as does the pair on the right-hand upper loop line. One single rail insulated joiner would have sufficed but I like over do insulation as stated previously. One joiner inserted after the frogs, per frog rail, would be ok and work just as well.

 

[harkins77]

Hi Brian

Thanks for doing that for me I will get on with it on my next days off as I've got some family duties to get sorted this week.

I'll let you know how I get on.

Again thanks for that.

 

[harkins77]

Brian I have just been in contact with mg sharp where my supplier gets his track from and he has told me that the points are electrofrog but they are self isolating does that make the layout plan any different?

Also with the plan does it have power going to all the tracks so that power goes to all the tracks all the time? It's just when I showed the lad I got the track from he said it was wired up for analogue to which we had an argument about but he would show me what he meant. I trust your plan but I just wanted some clarification before I went ahead and ripped up the track to re-wire it.

I just think he was being an arse.

Sorry to be second guessing you I just wanna make sure it doesn't go pear shaped.

Regards

Kain.

 

[Brian]

Hi harkins77
I'm not sure what the term "Self Isolating Live frog" means?? Live frog points will isolate by virtue of the fact they allow two of the same polarities onto the unselected lines (2 x positives or 2 x negatives onto the two rails). Please refer to my web site - Electrical page for a beter explanation........ Points

To allow a DCC layout to operate fully all sidings are powered regardless for the position of the point that leads into that siding (This is why there are plenty of insulated rail joiners and feeds used) The advantage then is that a loco stabled in a siding with the points set against it can still be moved in that siding, have any lights turned on/off or a smoke unit turned on/off etc.

Your model shop/mate (to my surprise) fails to seem to understand the basic principle of DCC, in that every section of a layout is always powered no matter which way any points are set.

If you wire to the plan it will work on DCC without any problems

 

[harkins77]

Hi Brian,

I have to apologise I have made a screw up with the plan for the layout.

I have realised this when I was making the changes you suggested.

Please take a look at these 2 pictures and would you please redesign the plan including any changes to where to put the feeds please?

http://newlayout.fotopic.net/p45980723.html

http://newlayout.fotopic.net/p45980724.html

I think the problem is that I have only put 1 set of points coming from the actual circle of track instead there is the 1st one that leads to the sidings and then there is a 2nd point of the circle of the track that goes to the passing loop.

I know it probably sounds confusing.

I am sorry to mess you about.

 

[harkins77]

Brian this is the track design with the points changed at the bottom please could you take a look and let me know how this changes the wiring diagram please.

http://newlayout.fotopic.net/p45985449.html

 

[harkins77]

the problem I have is that where the first point ends the point that leads to the passing loop starts so there is nowhere to place any other power feeds if I add any other insulated rail joiners.

Can anyone give me a clue please???

 

[dwb]

QUOTE Can anyone give me a clue please???
I use large radius Peco code 75 electrofrog points. The trackbase for this is two parts with a gap between them in the middle. I trim the small webbing "spurs" back to the edge of the sleeper. This gives me just enough room to solder a feed to the rail. You need a thin tip on your soldering iron for this job.

You may be able to achieve something similar with your points?

David

 

[Brian]

Hi Harkins77
Sorry for the delay.... Domestic items needed doing (Shopping with SWMBO!)
Here's your revised track plan with new feeds and insulated joiners below. Note, I have removed the double rail breaks that were shown originally as these may only lead you to be more confused?
Your track power feed locations can be anywhere on the rail thay are shown on in the diagram. Not necessarily where the triangle is shown diagrammatically. Which may help?

 

[harkins77]

Thanks for that brian I have been in the shed today and basically ripped the track up and been wiring up as much as I could. It is much appretiated that you could help me.

Regards

Kain.